General DiscussionIs support still a thing?

Cores just have more impact on the overall game because they're the one pushing and taking kills

"Cores just have more impact on the overall game because they're the one pushing and taking kills"

so, what you are saying is that support is no longer a thing, outside of playstyle and personal preference

no, it's the explanation why cores have bigger winrates
Try a no support meta, and all winrates will decrease by a lot

Because lots of core heroes are at the bottom of the list too

"Try a no support meta, and all winrates will decrease by a lot"

you're kidding, right? okay, pop question: what is the average win rate *right now* across all heroes and skill brackets

"Because lots of core heroes are at the bottom of the list too"

which i mentioned in my original post.

Oh soz didnt read
Well I guess that's it
Ye cores hold like 70% of the share on determining the outcome

"Ye cores hold like 70% of the share on determining the outcome"

well, cores are played around 70 percent of the time so that's pretty much to be expected. my concern is that this patch is making cores have 100% of the share in determining outcome and that supports are irrelevant.

btw, if you arent really good at math (as in at least 3 quarters of science major college calculus) then you really shouldnt be posting on this comment thread.

this topic is about the math behind the games being played since the patch

Good god this question tho. Are supports needed in competitive games? How do you even play the game?
Lack of support impact?
Analogy:
Goalkeepers in Soccer have no impact in scoring goals, are they needed in the game?

oh god the math majors are comming!
hold your grounds my fellow dotabuffers, we are about to witness some sick science

"Goalkeepers in Soccer have no impact in scoring goals, are they needed in the game?"

a team with no goalkeeper would have a horrible winrate. given the pick and win rates of cores since the patch plenty of games are being won with absolutely no support.

again, i'm talking about math based evidence, not some hypothetical anecdote.

if supports were necessary you wouldnt be seeing the winrates on cores that we are seeing. now, it may be possible that developing relevant support takes longer to figure out than the time required to figure out how to play a core. that's fine. that's an actual answer

it took 4 days for beastmaster to jump almost 12 percent in win rate. so, people figured out how to play him very quickly.

the reason i'm asking is i have limited time to play the game and i dont want to waste my time figuring out how to support in the new patch only to find that support isnt relevant to the meta.

this is a serious question. are people just wasting their time learning how to support in patch 7.07. so far, the win rates suggest it's just a waste of time

it was never a thing, u dont need supp, go 5 cores is 100% win

source: idc, 2017

well you can win games without supps, you can even have both sides no supp and there will be still a team that wins the game

you can have a vs go carry, thats all possible, I saw people go IO carry quite a few times, everything is part of the game

one thing tho:
whatever this playstile is where you go a no supp strat, it is certainly NOT "competitive"

you are currently in a patch update with 2 new heroes, people are doing goofy shit all over the place going MOM on bane and shit, how can you call that competitive?

I mean you call it "meta" as if is suddenly defined. 90% of the people don't know that pangolier has a vector based Q skill and you want to define the meta.
The state of the game is chaos, stats don't mean shit now and stating that supps are not needed in the game just shows everybody that you have no clue what the role of supps are in the game besides buying wards.

You don't have to "learn" how to support in the new patch if you realized how to do it before. NOthing has changed. Supports are still there and regulary picked in ACTUAL competitive dota and used how they were used for 7 years.

From what I've seen support is still needed no matter at what mmr you play.
You don't have enought place to farm for 5 carry and you still need someone to buy ward, courrier, to secure the farm, to harrass the enemy...
Well, thanks to comeback mechanic you might be able to win with no support in low mmr games

What's 3 quarters of science major college calculus? Is it like calculating curve? I'm bad at Trigonometry.

Btw I checked the top 19 you said
There are 10 cores for sure, and there are 5 common pos 4 or 5 supports, the rest pos 3. So yeah... that's not much 70% or even 100%.

Thing is over half of the Dota heroes are carries (The whole agi section is pretty much 90% carries)
Take the bigger picture
The whole list, number of heroes with above 50% winrate are less than that with below 50% winrate
but the above 50% doesn't have that many cores(Well not over 70% that's for sure), yet the below 50% you can find like obviously tons of them so there's that.

Some cores are meta, they have above 50% winrate easily because cores hold 70% win-lose factor, and tons of them are trash picks and go below 50%.
As for supports, are always relevant, never fluctuating so much in the winrates.

STILL THOUGH, the list includes all skill range. That includes Normal Skill. Which is usually unreliable.

https://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/meta
This might be more reliable. Check the 5k+
The top winrates are mostly supports. IDK about this patch though, but a game without supports is just... not good.

But then I wouldn't advise you to support in Normal Skill.

"Btw I checked the top 19 you said
There are 10 cores for sure, and there are 5 common pos 4 or 5 supports, the rest pos 3. So yeah... that's not much 70% or even 100%."

if you are looking at the overall meta rates those are going to be from the past 30 days, meaning most of that is pre patch. if you look under the "trends" tab and sort by "current win rate" only 2 are "pure" supports, omniknight and maiden. yes, riki and pudge are there as well but i wouldnt classify them as "supports". abaddon is in that 19 but he can easily be used as a pure offlaner, although he can play Pos 4. btw, shaman is 20th, which is why i cut off at 19, and you start seeing supports populate the middle of the table, e.g. lich, jakiro.

i'm a bit miffed because i spent time pre patch focusing on jakiro, lich, ogremagi. it's not that i'm losign games playing with them, it's that i'm not seeing any real game impact playing with them that i definitely saw pre 7.07.

"But then I wouldn't advise you to support in Normal Skill."

at one point i had a 65 percent win rate over 40 games playing position 5 as a brand new player. statistically, that's a *huge* impact on game outcomes (as opposed to a 65 pct win rate over 3 games). obviously, playing support in normal skill had huge impact pre 7.06 (at least the way i was playing it). yes, i'll admit to spamming good meta heroes like lich, maiden, jakiro, et al

btw, if you arent really good at math (as in at least 3 quarters of science major college calculus) then you really shouldnt be posting on this comment thread.

this topic is about the math behind the games being played since the patch

If Omniknight is pure support but pudge and riki aren't considered support then you don't know support brah

This patch nerfed support a bit, 7.06 was a great patch for support so it was inevitable. But nothing much changed really... support is still good.

If there r 3 cores and 2 supports in a team of course they have more impact
This thread is actually retarded

Not that this will necessarily have huge effect, but exactly how to support properly might not have been figured out in ~5 days, pull camps are different for instance, it is quite impossible to pull the large camp now and you essentially have to connect the pull. Things that will affect is also average game length and farm speed, so for instance creeps give more money, which should slightly shift importance to cores rather than supports. Overall I don't think it is particularly important to focus on these kind of stats when looking at what you yourself should play. For instance Lion has always had a pretty shit win rate, but it is one of my best heroes. Omni and lich essentially have a good win rate because they are really easy to play, so supporting on them becomes more impactful, on average but not individually.

My main point is that the dotabuff stats for supports are somewhat corrupted by the fact that "core players" sometimes have to pick supports, and those type of players will probably only be good at "easy" supports. The trends page honestly hasnt changed much, the same support heroes are at the top... But if you learn to play a difficult support hero like WW or disruptor, I think you individually could see a really high win rate with it, regardless of the meta/trend win rate

Plus i would note that pudge and riki should as "Into the window of Soul" said definitely be considered supports, they are just pos 4 supports rather than 5.. Things with this patch honestly haven't changed too many things, there are numerous problems with playing 5 man core dota. First of all, since cores are important, if you do a good job supporting a spectre on lane, that spectre will probably win you the game. Second, if you pick 5 core lineup, there will simply not be enough gold for everyone to gather on the map, this is even a problem if u pick 2-3 greedy cores. What will happen is that all your cores will have like a similar 10k networth because the jungle is always cleared by another of your core teammates, and the opposing team will have like a 25k networth AM because he has a lot of farm left to himself.

Here in 2k supports are useful only if they are gonna hit/kill enemy mid or carry. They are very useful if the carry doesn't have disables himself, otherwise supports are useless here.

"Friendly player", the supports that have higher impact than that will eventually disappear from 2k.. I have friends at 1-2k that are of the opinion that supporting has little impact because the carries can't carry. The truth is that both carries and supports have impact, if you simply play well enough.. focusing on meta trends or blame your teammates i think does little to improve your mmr. I started dota at 2k mmr, climbed to 3.5k by supporting, so supports can definitely have impact. It is just that the ones that do, simply wont be supports at 2k anymore. Same for carries, the cores that "are worth supporting" will probably leave 2k eventually.

Without supports, the game is lost, so further discussion is irrelevant.

Disabling Supports are strongest now imo.
Ppl started picking cores who sustain in lane early in, so all you do ist roam. Duo roaming is quite popular.
Imo stuff like rubick lion shaman shaker bara are great

Terrible thread

There are 3 cores and 2 supports in high skill bracket. 4 cores and 1 support in 4k and no support in 2k. There will always be better stats for cores cause there are more cores played. I think supports are there to enable the cores to carry the game, so they have an significant impact in the game. Btw many support players are captains and drafters for their teams...

Support still relevant in competitive game, people just being ignorant about it. And yes heroes that normally core can be played as a support IF you good enough playing a certain hero that is normally a core hero to be played as a support. Is this enough to answer your questions? What do you expect bro, there’s only 2 supports and 3 cores each game if the team is not retarded that you go 1 support 4 cores team or even worse 5 man cores. Its just a dumb statistics, all you need to know is a support is STILL relevant and as you said it is has the lowest impact in the game. They have the lowest damage on heroes and buildings, less kills and less gold and exp. but in terms of disabling enemy heroes and warding, they fucking superior my good sir.

Is this just a troll post.

There are 3 cores and 2 supports in high skill bracket. 4 cores and 1 support in 4k and no support in 2k. There will always be better stats for cores cause there are more cores played. I think supports are there to enable the cores to carry the game, so they have an significant impact in the game. Btw many support players are captains and drafters for their teams...

You could change your thing a little, in 2k there are supports.

Below 2k ppl pick supports and farm shadowblade aghs dagon for most efficient killsnatching lul

You're absolutely correct, OP. Current meta does not need a support position at all. The entire community is just starting to realize that the SEA players were always right. Team compositions in SEA is mid carry, safelane carry, offlane carry, jungle carry, and roaming carry.

It's an unspoken rule that the first person who dies gets the courier. Following that, it used to be that the next person who gets a kill is obligated to upgrade the courier. However, this patch introduced a free upgrade for the courier, creating a scenario that is much more beneficial for the SEA team since someone from the team is bound to die in the next 2 minutes as opposed to hoping that someone from the team can actually get a kill before the 15 minute mark like they normally do.

Relocation of the Bounty Runes closer to the river, ie easier to snatch, has opened up the possibilites of traditional safelane/mid carries such as AM and QoP to instead move to the roaming carry position. Their mobility allows them to go up to a rune, rune fight the enemy hero, and whether they take it or not they can run away. More examples of these "flex" carries are Slark, Puck, Faceless Void, and Weaver (although Weaver has been played as a roaming support before, just would like to mention him). On a personal not I especially like Slardar since he can max Sprint and zip through the river at over haste speed.

You know what let's talk more about Slardar's potential to roam. Draft-wise you can fool the enemy by first picking Slardar. Slardar is such a comfortable pick that provides the chance for a variety of strategies to employ. From the Dazzle support combo to the Lifestealer/Slardar taxi combo, Slardar does his role in whatever strat so well. Keep in mind that the mentioned strats are ONLY under the category of anti-armor strat, not to mention his possible roles in turtling strats and early push strats to name a few.

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I kinda have the feeling that OP played turbo mode and thus made the conclusion that supps are useless.
I even agree with that if we talk about turbo mode.

You can't be serious, try to play a game of 5 cores vs 3 cores and 2 supports; assuming everyone is of the same skill level the 5 cores will get completely stomped, the team with supports will have superior vision, proper initiation, tons of cc, will constantly gank all lanes early game, and will reach their timings a lot faster because there will be proper lane and farm distribution.

Well cores are key in late game, supports in early-mid game.

If supports do their job well, team is on the way to win and it is up to cores to wrap up the game. Supports are still a key for the team to win, otherwise cores suffers on lanes and need a lot of time to get into the game and match the other team cores.

And as soon as you have 5 cores team, where do you put those cores?

Btw is mid still a thing?

Out of first 26 heroes, only 1 of them is true mid. Zeus is on 8th position, Medusa 9th (mid presence <30%), Storm 27th.

It might be a good idea to completely ignore mid and drop the lane, as most of mid heroes are out of TOP30 WR heroes.

btw, if you arent really good at math (as in at least 3 quarters of science major college calculus) then you really shouldnt be posting on this comment thread.
this topic is about the math behind the games being played since the patch

if this isnt being snobby, i dont know what is
Oh well I probably shudnt be posting here bcs what is math?

Normal skill , and you probably never watched a tournament? lol

Human stupidity is endless , but you don't need to prove it like this

Smartasses lmao

No one mention kunkka sad :((

supports are no longer fashionable.

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Judging by win rates alone is stupid. What you’d need to do is take an average of a top hero like spectre with no lane support vs with a lane support. The thing is the supports support top win rate carries and bottom ones so it evens out. But try going a 5 core lineup vs a 3-2 one and see how hard it is.

Of course turbo 5 cores all the way but turbo isn’t included in the hero win rates.