Offensive aghs is a no go, pretty much because aghs should not be more slot efficient han actual damage items, that'd be stupid. But I see a lot of potential for a defensive aghs a la antimage.
am has pretty bad mana, and the only mana regen item he buys is battlefury
in the midgame this is ok, but by lategame where u r spamming ur abyssal and manta actives way more and fighting more I find am to just use 1/2 or 2/3 of his mana in one fight then not be ready for the next fight.
a six slotted am with travels, abyssal, butterfly, manta, battlefury, and aghs has total 1218 mana but 8.8 mana regen.
a six slotted am with travels, abyssal, butterfly, manta, battlefury, and linkens has total 1098 mana but 14.9 mana regen.
the former has 10.9% more total mana than the latter, but the latter has 69.3% more mana regen than the former.
Offensive aghs is a no go, pretty much because aghs should not be more slot efficient han actual damage items, that'd be stupid. But I see a lot of potential for a defensive aghs a la antimage.
ok dude make a defense only aghs better than linken/satan/skadi/bkb in 15% situations at least that isnt brokne
if u think that comparison is unfair pa runs into slot issues with deso and bkb/satanic are either super cheap or hav einsanely value buildup wheras aghs buildups almost insultingly garbo and with 3k sunk is basically worse than morbid let alone reaver and is at best even with pers/hammer
Actually, you make some very good points, I stand corrected, I had a completely different perspective but I completely forgot to evaluate the value of aghs on AM vs PA considering AM likes stats whereas PA likes burst.
Oh and AM's aghs is broken in a lot of scenarios, I forgot that too. PA would really be cancer to deal with if she had a really strong defensive aghs that you'd see every game. She'd go for a quick deso, grab some kills, get an aghs and bkb in any order, then be unkillable for the rest of the game while she takes your buildings.
ur not wrong that pa benefits from hp a lot but you really want more value out of a slot than 350 hp and 10 damage. maybe you could make it some kinda cc or magic resistance ala kraken shell/grave cloak or something as a bkb alternative with worse damage but itd be hellishly hard to balance i think
yeah ur right in that pa wants to grab a couple low gold items and rape people wheras AMs aghs is heavily constrained by the fact that he fills his inventory so fast that he might want to replace it with something else 11 mintues later and hes not really an early fighter in almost all situations
It's still hard to argue that a point booster is worth half the vlads (not that you want to build vlads, but vlads is still vastly superior to blade of alacrity and point booster together) even if it is priced as such, though. And as you said, comparing a component of aghs to morbid mask makes it garbage to build, especially early.
And as you said, Satanic is really good right now, and imo, you probably aren't going to need more HP than what satanic provides anyways. The idea that Aghs would have to replace either BKB or Satanic might be flawed in some sense (nothing is stopping you from having all 3 even as defensive if that's what the game calls for), considering that Satanic also gives damage now, but it is still far fetched. It'd be basically like having linkens, bkb and satanic and then wasting your 5 sec bkb lategame not being able to kill shit. I actually saw a game like a month ago where the guy had all the defensive items but did no damage as PA, it was a competitive game too.
I mean, PA is a hero that will die if she doesn't manage to kill her targets. If she's caught in a silence, CC'd or anything of the sort, you can say, yeah right guys, it's all cool, I have a decent HP pool, but aside from the fact you don't want to end in a situation like that to begin with (to depend on your hp pool), it seems to me that building cheap damage items is almost always more valuable for her early (if it isn't, then you picked a wrong hero), and even the point booster alone looks like dead weight.
And after some theorycrafting I actually fail to see now, how a defensive aghs could be balanced - and what it would be balanced for.
AM's aghs is balanced around the idea that you can't simply pop it like linkens, you have to think clearly about everything, so you don't end up blackholing (vortexiing) your whole team as storm, and similar things. I mean, even reflecting lion's earth spike can be a disaster. But it comes at a price of an item slot on a hero THAT HAS NO STRENGTH GAIN WHATSOEVER and who will die if caught offguard, and already builds a ton of survivability to begin with. And yes, aghs looks more like an 7th slot item on AM most games if the player is even remotely decent or has any sort of a good game.
PA's aghs would need to either make the hero much better at what it does, or to be at least half decent at things it is really bad against. As you said, if it did something about nukes. Someone mentioned accuracy/true strike mitigation where she'd have guaranteed 25% evasion or some stuff. Either that, or make her skill set in general much better, maybe even charged blink strikes and daggers, or who the hell knows.
Balancing this game is much harder than playing it, and I suck at both, I have no fucking idea why I am even commenting.
The most mana am can use per second spamming blink, ult, abyssal and manta is 22.2. -8.8 gives net 13.4, it'll take 90 seconds of spamming every ability you have to go oom. That's quite a bit, any fight going 90 seconds is a big brawl, I don't think you need more than that, and then your team usually has greaves or something. Plus you have no vlads in that build, mid game vlads is big.
But anyway back to PA, I do agree it's very hard to make any item defensively that's better for her than bkb or linkens already are, or isn't broken. Giving her back dodge vs mkb would be cool but it just destroys game mechanics then and is probably broken.
Randomness of her crit is her real issue which is why I suggested aghs makes a garunteed crit after a blink strike. Makes her a lot more reliable, but doesn't really give a big damage increase since she should be critting at least once every 5 seconds anyway.
In all this discussion, seems like everyone skips Vlad's. Why?
I know it will be irrelevant late game, but for the mid game (after a battlefury), its quite efficient for mana + health regen. Also, a nice damage bonus for farm speed.
PA aghs, Coup De Grace can be activated to gain 100% chance for crit for half the crit value on your next attack while the skill on CD PA loses the chance to crit, CD (20 seconds)
because i find myself almost never needing it, u sell it quick, it chokes slots, someone who farms as fast as am doesnt need a slot filler like that he just wants to transition to bigger items
im fairly certain that unless its needed against something like axe or lc, its better to get manta a couple minutes later than vlads a couple minutes earlier, after bf.
Just give her charges for her dagger or her Jump. Maybe 2 Jump Charges and 2 Dagger Charges with CD every 10 Seconds for dagger and 20 seconds for Jump. Gives her a plethora of stats and some cool Burst Potential. Hero stays relatively the same but just a little more effective. Ez to nerf. Jus nerf the Daggers Crit Damage make it like 75% add a charge or two to compensate. I think having 2-3 jumps would be sick.
vlads is amazing on anti mage and if you are selling it that fast I'd say something is wrong. It's extremely good late cus of the lifesteal letting you manfight other carries. In your 6 slot build typically I'd say it's boots, battlefury, manta, abyssal core, then you can go vlads and butter. If you need aghs or linkens I think you drop the butter tbh until ultra late when you can swap in butter for boots. Vlad is really, really good on am. You're not rushing butter before abyssal at least so it'd still be 6th item when you sell vlads.
Anyway PA, I think active coupe de grace would be cool.
Activate coupe de grace to gain double crit chance for the next 10 seconds, followed by 10 seconds of no crit chance. 20s cd. So it works just like spirit breaker's hast active except doubles and then goes to 0% instead of 150% and 50%.
That would be really nice for giving her reliable burst and then nerfs her following. Not op cus teams could kite, ghost scepter, force staff, disarm etc during that 10 seconds, so PA has to time it. I like this idea.
Maybe a new skill that lets her
Reflect every damage instance above 300.....would be pretty cool to pick up against lina aghs ult or some one who bought a rapier or dagon carriers
Why TF wud u buy vlads after abyssal? It's only 15% lifesteal, which certainly doesn't make u better at fighting than butterfly, and guess what am can farm that butter pretty damn fast
Why TF wud u buy vlads after abyssal? It's only 15% lifesteal, which certainly doesn't make u better at fighting than butterfly, and guess what am can farm that butter pretty damn fast
How abt an active component to blur which is like Ursa aghs, giving her a strong dispel which she can use while stunned, except it also makes truestrike half as effective (25% evasion) for the next 5 seconds, with a 15 second CD.
Or make dagger reduce total dmg output by abt 35% and give it 3 charges which the same 6 second CD.
How abt an active component to blur which is like Ursa aghs, giving her a strong dispel which she can use while stunned, except it also makes truestrike half as effective (52% evasion) for the next 50 seconds, with a 51 second CD.
Or make dagger reduce total dmg output by abt 53% and give it 30 charges which the same 60 second CD.
Offensive aghs is a no go, pretty much because aghs should not be more slot efficient han actual damage items, that'd be stupid. But I see a lot of potential for a defensive aghs a la antimage.
antimage does need mana regen dude
also I like this idea for an active element of blur
Linkens = overkill of mana regen for am.
am has pretty bad mana, and the only mana regen item he buys is battlefury
in the midgame this is ok, but by lategame where u r spamming ur abyssal and manta actives way more and fighting more I find am to just use 1/2 or 2/3 of his mana in one fight then not be ready for the next fight.
a six slotted am with travels, abyssal, butterfly, manta, battlefury, and aghs has total 1218 mana but 8.8 mana regen.
a six slotted am with travels, abyssal, butterfly, manta, battlefury, and linkens has total 1098 mana but 14.9 mana regen.
the former has 10.9% more total mana than the latter, but the latter has 69.3% more mana regen than the former.
ok dude make a defense only aghs better than linken/satan/skadi/bkb in 15% situations at least that isnt brokne
if u think that comparison is unfair pa runs into slot issues with deso and bkb/satanic are either super cheap or hav einsanely value buildup wheras aghs buildups almost insultingly garbo and with 3k sunk is basically worse than morbid let alone reaver and is at best even with pers/hammer
Actually, you make some very good points, I stand corrected, I had a completely different perspective but I completely forgot to evaluate the value of aghs on AM vs PA considering AM likes stats whereas PA likes burst.
Oh and AM's aghs is broken in a lot of scenarios, I forgot that too. PA would really be cancer to deal with if she had a really strong defensive aghs that you'd see every game. She'd go for a quick deso, grab some kills, get an aghs and bkb in any order, then be unkillable for the rest of the game while she takes your buildings.
ur not wrong that pa benefits from hp a lot but you really want more value out of a slot than 350 hp and 10 damage. maybe you could make it some kinda cc or magic resistance ala kraken shell/grave cloak or something as a bkb alternative with worse damage but itd be hellishly hard to balance i think
yeah ur right in that pa wants to grab a couple low gold items and rape people wheras AMs aghs is heavily constrained by the fact that he fills his inventory so fast that he might want to replace it with something else 11 mintues later and hes not really an early fighter in almost all situations
It's still hard to argue that a point booster is worth half the vlads (not that you want to build vlads, but vlads is still vastly superior to blade of alacrity and point booster together) even if it is priced as such, though. And as you said, comparing a component of aghs to morbid mask makes it garbage to build, especially early.
And as you said, Satanic is really good right now, and imo, you probably aren't going to need more HP than what satanic provides anyways. The idea that Aghs would have to replace either BKB or Satanic might be flawed in some sense (nothing is stopping you from having all 3 even as defensive if that's what the game calls for), considering that Satanic also gives damage now, but it is still far fetched. It'd be basically like having linkens, bkb and satanic and then wasting your 5 sec bkb lategame not being able to kill shit. I actually saw a game like a month ago where the guy had all the defensive items but did no damage as PA, it was a competitive game too.
I mean, PA is a hero that will die if she doesn't manage to kill her targets. If she's caught in a silence, CC'd or anything of the sort, you can say, yeah right guys, it's all cool, I have a decent HP pool, but aside from the fact you don't want to end in a situation like that to begin with (to depend on your hp pool), it seems to me that building cheap damage items is almost always more valuable for her early (if it isn't, then you picked a wrong hero), and even the point booster alone looks like dead weight.
And after some theorycrafting I actually fail to see now, how a defensive aghs could be balanced - and what it would be balanced for.
AM's aghs is balanced around the idea that you can't simply pop it like linkens, you have to think clearly about everything, so you don't end up blackholing (vortexiing) your whole team as storm, and similar things. I mean, even reflecting lion's earth spike can be a disaster. But it comes at a price of an item slot on a hero THAT HAS NO STRENGTH GAIN WHATSOEVER and who will die if caught offguard, and already builds a ton of survivability to begin with. And yes, aghs looks more like an 7th slot item on AM most games if the player is even remotely decent or has any sort of a good game.
PA's aghs would need to either make the hero much better at what it does, or to be at least half decent at things it is really bad against. As you said, if it did something about nukes. Someone mentioned accuracy/true strike mitigation where she'd have guaranteed 25% evasion or some stuff. Either that, or make her skill set in general much better, maybe even charged blink strikes and daggers, or who the hell knows.
Balancing this game is much harder than playing it, and I suck at both, I have no fucking idea why I am even commenting.
The most mana am can use per second spamming blink, ult, abyssal and manta is 22.2. -8.8 gives net 13.4, it'll take 90 seconds of spamming every ability you have to go oom. That's quite a bit, any fight going 90 seconds is a big brawl, I don't think you need more than that, and then your team usually has greaves or something. Plus you have no vlads in that build, mid game vlads is big.
But anyway back to PA, I do agree it's very hard to make any item defensively that's better for her than bkb or linkens already are, or isn't broken. Giving her back dodge vs mkb would be cool but it just destroys game mechanics then and is probably broken.
Randomness of her crit is her real issue which is why I suggested aghs makes a garunteed crit after a blink strike. Makes her a lot more reliable, but doesn't really give a big damage increase since she should be critting at least once every 5 seconds anyway.
In all this discussion, seems like everyone skips Vlad's. Why?
I know it will be irrelevant late game, but for the mid game (after a battlefury), its quite efficient for mana + health regen. Also, a nice damage bonus for farm speed.
It's amusing that all Agh's discussions eventually come back to Anti-Mage.
PA aghs, Coup De Grace can be activated to gain 100% chance for crit for half the crit value on your next attack while the skill on CD PA loses the chance to crit, CD (20 seconds)
because i find myself almost never needing it, u sell it quick, it chokes slots, someone who farms as fast as am doesnt need a slot filler like that he just wants to transition to bigger items
im fairly certain that unless its needed against something like axe or lc, its better to get manta a couple minutes later than vlads a couple minutes earlier, after bf.
Lets make PA Dagger like LUNA GLAIVE LMAO .
BOUNCING DAGGERS WITH CRIT + BASH + LIFESTEAL LETS GO . BALANCED FOR 4.2K GOLD
AOE dagger.
Pa aghs makes her completly invisible on the minimap? like you cant see her at all unlews ur close? thats seems to strong though
Just give her charges for her dagger or her Jump. Maybe 2 Jump Charges and 2 Dagger Charges with CD every 10 Seconds for dagger and 20 seconds for Jump. Gives her a plethora of stats and some cool Burst Potential. Hero stays relatively the same but just a little more effective. Ez to nerf. Jus nerf the Daggers Crit Damage make it like 75% add a charge or two to compensate. I think having 2-3 jumps would be sick.
aghanim upgrade on pa
why not
she gets something like bkb for 5 sec evry 30 sec
u get free bkb with alch in da game
vlads is amazing on anti mage and if you are selling it that fast I'd say something is wrong. It's extremely good late cus of the lifesteal letting you manfight other carries. In your 6 slot build typically I'd say it's boots, battlefury, manta, abyssal core, then you can go vlads and butter. If you need aghs or linkens I think you drop the butter tbh until ultra late when you can swap in butter for boots. Vlad is really, really good on am. You're not rushing butter before abyssal at least so it'd still be 6th item when you sell vlads.
Anyway PA, I think active coupe de grace would be cool.
Activate coupe de grace to gain double crit chance for the next 10 seconds, followed by 10 seconds of no crit chance. 20s cd. So it works just like spirit breaker's hast active except doubles and then goes to 0% instead of 150% and 50%.
That would be really nice for giving her reliable burst and then nerfs her following. Not op cus teams could kite, ghost scepter, force staff, disarm etc during that 10 seconds, so PA has to time it. I like this idea.
Vlads post manta
I would definitely walk down mid if I see an antimage on my team doing that
You don't manfight people as AM
So I will assume that Agahnim on PA would be very demanded by the dota community :D Please some one tell Gaben!
pa aghs, cast dagger on all enemies in 900 range
Maybe a new skill that lets her
Reflect every damage instance above 300.....would be pretty cool to pick up against lina aghs ult or some one who bought a rapier or dagon carriers
A passive that grants a 100% chance to crit for 600% damage every 15 sec or so
Why TF wud u buy vlads after abyssal? It's only 15% lifesteal, which certainly doesn't make u better at fighting than butterfly, and guess what am can farm that butter pretty damn fast
Why TF wud u buy vlads after abyssal? It's only 15% lifesteal, which certainly doesn't make u better at fighting than butterfly, and guess what am can farm that butter pretty damn fast
doubles the base damage % used by the stifling dagger
like ATTACK DAMAGE: 25% / 40% / 55% / 70% to 50% / 80% / 110% / 140%
How abt an active component to blur which is like Ursa aghs, giving her a strong dispel which she can use while stunned, except it also makes truestrike half as effective (25% evasion) for the next 5 seconds, with a 15 second CD.
Or make dagger reduce total dmg output by abt 35% and give it 3 charges which the same 6 second CD.
How abt an active component to blur which is like Ursa aghs, giving her a strong dispel which she can use while stunned, except it also makes truestrike half as effective (52% evasion) for the next 50 seconds, with a 51 second CD.
Or make dagger reduce total dmg output by abt 53% and give it 30 charges which the same 60 second CD.
^you good fam?
Good you fam
ye im cool
+2 Stifling Daggers.
All good bro. No hard feeling. I anger issue sorry
they might as well add invisibility like they did for Windranger