General DiscussionHow to win a game despite the feeders on your team?

accept it and go pray to god for not getting matched braindead people

going 0-10 with bristle in 5 minutes cant be done by normal people

I know that feeling, been there many times on this profile. How about even when other lanes feed, is there a hero you can go rampage with anyway? Broodmother or sth like that? The problem is i dont get matched with noobs, despite of low lvl. Oposite teams are almost always pretty descent, its hard to win lanes easy. Any advice for a particullar hero/tactics?

Despite how gay Brood is, she can't snowball and carry her team to victory alone unless you are exceptionally good with her/your opponent's are exceptionally retarded. I cannot help you with further advice, because I prefer to support my team to victory than carry it...even if it is hardly as effective.

Give a try to Rat profit or Lycanthratpe I guess?

You can't. I just played a game where my team fed from the first minute. Didn't matter how well could i have played (and i was doing ok, 6-0 as slark, won my lane and was always up to gank), the other team was so fed. My Void didn't put a single point on his first skill, for escaping purposes (he died like 3 times in a row where he could have easily escaped if he had that skill).

Doesn't matter how well you play, there are some games that you are going to lose, doesn't matter what you do. There is also the games you are going to win anyway, even if you go support Anti-Mage and end-up like 0/13/0.

to keep your rating high, you have to win those close game. those games show up once in a lifetime, but they do show up. you'll realize when you're in one

btw as your are playing with and versus noobs, i'd suggest going mid. that surely will improve your chance to win if you get fed early

OR

riki

gg

if there are noobs on your team there are likely noobs on your opponents team, that is how valves MM works. You can hide your head in the sand and pretend like this is not the case but it is.......

@gravity

having a good score as slark is not some huge feat slark is quite broken in pubs

http://dotabuff.com/matches/463658473

I am not even all that good as slark

BTW the number of anons in team just shouts you are going to lose or not most of the times.

anons are usually people who suck at playing bristleback and picking as captain
THIS HAS BEEN TESTED A FEW TIMES AND 2 TIMES TODAY SO ITS CONFIRMED

@gravity - thank you, you're probably right.

@Sampson - check out this game: http://dotabuff.com/matches/466353432 I was offllane clock, was doing ok, but till the time i was lvl 6 to go gank around, it was already like 2-20 in kills for them. Matchmaking works, but it doesnt work always. You get so unbalanced matches sometimes, it hurts really. This was just one of them.

And like gravity said - you probably just can't win some games, no mather what you do. Mostly those one side stomp games, when mm fails badly. Btw - oponents werent that bad, but my teammates were. If they were of same skill, game would be most surely closer.

@sampson, where did i stated that i was doing great? i said that doesnt matter how well you play, if you team is a bunch of feeders, you cant do anything, and, though I was doing well with slark, i couldnt do anything to prevent the loss cause their team was already fed

@Sugar Puppy

that is what happens when you make a smurf account the system really has no idea where to put you. Both teams seems to have no idea what they are doing. The only thing that happened was early kills into a snowball while extremely new players have no idea how to defend themselves against it. You would not have these issues if you did not smurf

@gravity

I would watch your match but you seem like the kind of person who would just completely ignore anything I said about your gameplay so I dont think it is worth my time

@Sampson - i'm not smurfing. My main profile was created, when i was a complete beginner and its really hard to climb up mmr ranking, especially when you play so much with beginners as i did. So i picked experienced player on my second profile and i play from there on. I was in high/very higher bracket for a while, not sure what other people are doing with new profiles, but i just try to get lvl 13 asap to play Ranked matches and get as high as i can. I get really good players sometimes (experienced too, 1000games+) and sometimes things like that. I hope things sort out soon since i intent to play this profile as my main.

when you make a smurf account you can not really blame MM for not knowing who to match you with. People are under this misconception that if you make a new account you can reach higher MM, while you MIGHT get a slightly higher MM at the start you will eventually fall down to your actual skill bracket (your main accounts lv)

whats with the hate on smurf accounts LOL? my main is http://dotabuff.com/players/140972224 i used these account mostly for solo queue or when im partying with random people that im not sure wether their skill level is good-_-.... i started creating a new account cause my alche stats on my first account sucks( i wanna be an alche player) so i started a new account... then their comes the nerf on alche and is now used by supports or utility mid laners>.<

The issue I have with smurf accounts is that it ruins the game for your opponents/teammates. The system can either send you to fight noobs and have you stomp them(ruining the game for them) or put you in the higher tiers and ruin the game for them because we end up having to carry a smurf because they only got into the bracket because of the anti smurf system.

Well, first - we are OFFTOPIC so pls get back on it. Second - 160+ games should be enough for MM to know around where your skill lies. About mmr on new profile - @Sampson - so you have done it, to know what happens with your mmr on smurf account right? :)

@Sampson, feel free to watch that game. Indeed, i'm always open to criticize. A guy watched a replay on a topic that i created and he did make some constructive critics, so feel free to do the same. I never said i was doing amazing or anything like that, i just used my last match as an example that doesnt matter what you do, you willl lose anyway

3 matches in a row i get a guy named Mr.chicken in my team

he cant play any hero properly and has a brain of a fucking cockroach

4000 MMr my ass

@gravity

there are plenty of options in any game
-swapping the lanes to give more favorable matchups
-helping with rune control to give mid a needed advantage
-having a TP ready in case they dive into towers (good players will take note of bad players not holding scrolls and tell their teammates)
-not harassing your teammates (saying 'OMG' 'stop feed' 'how did u die to X' only helps your opponent because it adds more stress and less likely to make a comeback)
etc.

I will watch the match now and tell you what I see

Sampson, ok, feel free to do it
as i said, it was not a perfect match (not even close), but i was doing better than the rest of my teammates
but honestly, there are times that you are bound to lose, doesnt matter what you do.. you can start ganking with a roamer (like venge) from lvl1, sometimes you are matched with so many poor players that they will find a way to feed even if you are starting to snowball

that game particularly i knew that we were going to lose, so i kinda threw, i wouldnt be able to carry anyway

i was mid as no one else would do it, but doesnt matter how bad my teammates are, i rarely blame them.. i usually either stay quiet or try to give a confidence boost, like saying we still can win, we gotta do X bla bla

but that game particularly wasn't coordinated at all, they fed really hard and at that point i couldnt kill anyone, as they were mostly doing 5 man pushes.. i could kill em only 1 by 1 (which was rare to happen)

but yea tell me where i need to improve and where i did fail, theres always room for improvement and i know that im not a good player yet

only 13mins atm
-your team picked void then nightstalker then clinkz and then you picked slark
-you maxed out dark pac first
-while your team was getting attacked past your tier 1 tower you sat in base for 30secs so you would have enough gold for your power treads
-you bought your first TP scroll 13mins into the game and you only used it to get from base to mid tier 2 to farm a few creeps
-you didnt help bottom even though they had a matchup even a very skilled player would have trouble against
-the enemy PL ganked more then you playing slark

More to come

-you bought 1 TP scroll in the whole match and that TP scroll was used to save a 2sec walk over to kill some creeps.
-teamfights consisted of you leaping as far away as fast as you could and refusing to help your teammates
-the other team never bothered to buy any detection so you managed to escape away from like 10 deaths

you play at the same level as your teammates you just happened to pick a hero who has a easy escape. Your gameplay hurt you team alot because your team was basically playing a 4v5

get good. someone with 81 wins and 86 losses is way too new to dota to even understand what should be and shouldnt be done in a match in order to win. you probably make more mistakes than your teammates, you just dont realize it because you are so new.

if there are feeders on the team then just ignore them and keep doing your best.

Ok look. This is my tactic. Pick a support hero with an op ult. Any support hero you are good with will do. But you want to be exceptional at them (For me its cm) You get courer, as the mid always needs courier, and a set of wards. Then you upgrade courier. I dont care if you are playing a hard carry, but if you are snowballing or find yourself with a spare 250 gold, upgrade it. I always upgrade courier, whether I'm cm or slark. Get a mike. Then you can order them around and they obey cos you sound like you know what you are doing. Get farm. Who the hell cares about carries? They will get farm off haroes and ancients and stuff mid game. They just need boots and levels. Then get mek, BKB, and force staff, and go in there and pop BKB and ult. IF YOU FIND A GOOD OPENING THIS SHOULD WORK! Your carries might not be fed, but 1 support AoE ult can win you the game. Check my profile. I played 4 games of CM recently, and smashed because I did exactly this. Oh and try not to ks, but if you cant help it, oh well, it gets you on the way to getting your much needed early mek and first items to stop you feeding.

The first step to getting better is to stop blaming matchmaking. Everyone has bad games, you included. Stop blaming matchmaking and move on. Assuming you are better than all your teammates isn't likely to get you anywhere.

BTW @ your origional message, dont pick OP mid carries that you think you need to pick to win. My friend always does that and he pulls it off. (He randoms carries every time wheres I random invoker or meepo) :( But He is the only person who I've seen turn the game around by doing that. Everyone else screws up and costs their team the game. If you pick cm or bane, or someone like her, your carries can get the hero kills they need to snowball and win you the game. You might not have the great *I can 1v1 someone* feeling, but you will win them the game cos you allowed them the space to do that.
Also I have watched about 250 or 300 pro team games, and suggest you do the same. See the play style, and where to put wards, how to find openings. Play style is most important. When you get a mike, you can more easily stop your team throwing the game away cos they tried to teamfight in their base cos they were cocky. You can tell them to play rat doto (the slow push/camping outside their base) Do these things, and I assure you, you will get a much higher win rate

@Zenoth. You are right sir. If you assume you are better than your teammates, then you pick carries. Whereas a good support if played by the best person in the team, is devastating. You know those games where you cant get items and lose towers cos noone bought courier? You can avoid 100% of those games.
Also get 2 supports on the team. 1 support isnt enough for courier, constant wards, and upgrades.
If you can get a mike, you can more easily persuade them to go another support. (eg. rubick, bane, enigma)

Another style is push to win. Me and my friend played a game where I went first time brood, he went lechrac, we had a creep stealing np, ok ogre, and pudge. Great push right? But they had a weaver dazzle laning combo vs my offlane brood (pain in the but) Lina, magnus, and abbadon. They had superior survivability, but I used my mike, so did pudge, and we 5 manned, and scared t hem out of defending. Besides, spiderlings, rot, treants leshracs things destroys creep waves and towers. Try pure pushing lineups with you mates and try supports, experiment a bit. You might find something you like

If you are good just play a LOT of games, you are going to go up with time ...

type GG

When the opposite lane suffers their 2nd death tell one of them to come to your lane and help gank when they respawn otherwise they will just feed more and more.

OMG I like this

@Sampson : " look how cool I am bitchez, eventhough I'm not good good slark, look ! If I'm cool I'm like 100 KDA " http://dotabuff.com/matches/463658473

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

A lot of people just default on name calling and typing "stop feeding" instead of actually assisting an injured lane. Some lanes can quite quickly get out of hand and people have to assume that while the person may not be playing at their best the lane could also be genuinely hard.

If you lane is winning then a lot of people are hesitant to move from it cause they have free farm or are tapping out kills. It's important to ensure all your lanes are going well enough to ensure you can survive a mid/late game and push to win. A simple TP rotation can quickly turn a lane around in favor of your team if you are willing to go help out someone who is struggling.

Don't try and win it solo as more often than not it won't work and you will need your full team to successfully pull of a difficult win.

Pick carry when u already have one.Or pick support and dont give your whole support to team.These 2 reasons lost games for me.So i pick support now despite i'm the BEST player in my team (I dont break the rule of dotabuff, everyone here is best on his team lulz) and depending on game i change lanes. (Helping mid actually helps or at least putting pressure)

As Zenoth said already, you have to stop blaming matching to win hard games. Even though sometimes it is a fact that the loss is because of matching... you can't think about it that way and win those kinds of games.

No matter what you do sometimes you can't win. But some games that seem unwinnable can be won. What you need to do to win despite feeders is practice accomplishing whatever can be done in all those games that have feeders. Often it won't work, but sometimes it will and practicing will give you the opportunity to improve.

So what can you do when you have a feeder?

[1] Win your lane. Win it big. Take a little extra risk. If you think you can win a fight, maybe 75% chance? Take the risk and get a kill. Be prepared for the opportunity (this means have a salve). Man-fight and win on low hp, salve up, Dominate your lane.

[2] Choose a mid-game oriented skill and item build. Don't get Hand of Midas or Helm of the Dominator. Get utility. That means drums, medallion, urn, mech. Cheap effective mid game items are the key.

[3] Have a tp scroll and look for chances to counter gank. Watch the feeder. Anticipate when they will be attacked. Port in and get a counter kill. Most feeds create space, it might not be much space. But at least for 10 sec or so spells are on cd so there is an opportunity to attack, however small. If you are not ready to attack right at that moment the opportunity is gone. You have to be ready and pounce on it.

[4] Don't rage. Performance in dota 2 is highly impacted by emotions. If you get upset you will fail. Instead see the game as a chance to play from behind. Playing from behind is how you learn to win games that look lost. Hiding in the fountain or afk farming in a lost game is how you learn to cry and whine. Which do you want to do?

Do I always follow my own advice? No. But when I do these things I have said they work. Do they cause me to win lost games? Sometimes, but not that often really. Do they cause me to enjoy lost games... Yes.

Sugar Puppy Dude I think you abuse kda too much and play to much safe. 48% win rate with those 5-6 average kda. That`s because you care for your kda and your impact in the game is weaker cos when some teamfight 3v4 is at midle you are scared to tp there and actually fight then your team die 3 for 1 and there is that advantage. Look my kdas? 2-4 at top page heroes , you think I m feeder? No,I m 4800 mmr I just fight with the team at right time even if I die that`s usually bait or 1 for 4 change or smth you must have big impact in game whatever hero you play that`s the most important thing. So stop abuse kda if you want to improve.

I was undying in lane solo against a sven and lina...yeah, I quickly learned that I wasn't getting any last hits this game and just hung around, hopefully, in xp range. Not much else I could do. If I got even a tiny bit too close, 1 stun from sven followed by another from lina and I was dead.

Now I probably should have rotated my lane and tried to make something happen, or even asked for some help in my lane but I just fed a couple of kills and then sat back trying to absorb some xp. think we lost.

Please remember that well over 50% of a match is decided by picks and has nothing to do with skill. Doesn't matter how good you are with a hero if you're countered or you don't work well with your team then you can be Dendi and still lose.

@OP
Have a look at this guy's games: http://dotabuff.com/players/110289963

He is a 5600 mmr player that took a 2900 mmr account and trying to carry it to 5k+. So far he won all games.

First - thanks you guys for lots of constructive advices! Much of that i already know and practise regulary in matched, since this is my second (new) profile and i'm lvl 80 on my main one.

@BogiDotO - you got that wrong. I dont care much about my KDA ratings, i care more about how much dmg i do to oponents and about my impact on the team. I dont care if i die, if only my team wins fight and the game (especially if i'm support). You noticed my good kda ratings - thats not because i care about it and play safe, but because i won a lot of games with stomp, since i'm more experienced player then my oponents were. Go check it out how much dmg did i do to oponents and you'll see. Lately, i get players more of my skill and its way harder to achieve good kda's. Btw - sometimes you just cant carry the team alone despite you had a great game. Maybe in 4800 mmr zone, when players actually know what they are doing and when to initiate and when not.

Keep em' coming guys, nice debate!

@6_din_49 - his last wining streak is quite impressive i must say. He surely deserves to be in high mmr zone, but it's far from wining "all games", since his wining rate is a bit over 51%.

@Sugar Puppy
He started playing on that account at the start of his winning streak! Until then, that account was played by a random 2900 player.

@6_din_49 - oh, thats clears things up. Well, he deserve to be where he is, that's all i can say :)

I was waiting for someone to do this, ty for the link! Im curious what mmr will he get the first loss on, and the first period when win% will be below 75% for last 10 or more games. That can help us understand how much you have to be better to be able to carry your team to victory.

Holy shit the guy is stomping, i really like this, i would like to see him playing some support though :P

Here's the full discussion & progress: http://www.playdota.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1398477

RAT DOTO

pick ember spirit and go mid