1. Chen creeps have no need ultra fast movement speed cuz it acts as auras as item complimentary for his cores. He used to provide heal ampli, good thing icefrog change it.
2. Meepo needs blink cuz it's his item timing, same as sf with eul or shaker with his blink dagger. Point here is, it's not just meepo that needs same items since ancient times.
2. They are not bad, it's just more difficult to play those heroes
3. Despite patches and metas, people made new discoveries (heroes selection, items, combos, etc.).
4. Dota 2 secrets, tips & tricks is way more easily accessible for free. In 2015 who would've thought archon, legend, and/or some ancient players stacking camp? support start to blocking camp with sentries?
5. And any others thought i wouldn't write cuz it will takes all my breakfast time.
6. You miss the old days dota 2? me too, but it's better now than then, at least for me.
7. Don't try to fix something unless it's broken.
Now, let's just focus on how to make cranium basher balance on marci? lol xd xd xd xd xd xd
@-eLuNium- Well my point is the fact that Meepo does have some sort of Pseduo-blink with his shard. Which leads me to believe that they are trying to bring meepo into some sort of "new light". Back in the day he used to get his ult at 6. So you can tell as well that they tried to make him scale better too through out the game. But These heroes are liked by me and they are perfect for playing, but their presence seems lacking when you compare it to what dota has become post reborn. I mean what is also the deal with Chens passive that they implemented? heal amp is strong, but is the passive armor and regen worth an ability slot?
cuz the zoo keeper skill is op already?
if chen have new ability to replace that now so called shit passive skill, i'll spam chen again for sure.
actually, in those days, have you ever fight enemy chen + offlane vladmir?
it's just sad to deal with you know.
keep in mind that icefrog want to bring the game to more fight action. Especially since the introduction of shrine and/or post and multishot fortification, etc. So there is no way game stomper heroes are coming back, unless valve completely rework them.
@-eLuNiuM- Also you could just add Marci to the list with Slardar, Facelessvoid, and Spirit Breaker where they don't get the passive Stun.
Honestly chen is in the best spot he's ever been in in terms of balance. Only thing he needs is quality of life changes. For example, with level one holy persuasion you can convert magic resist creeps from the centaur camp but not the hellbear smasher camp. This only adds to the rng that chen experiences during the laning phase which is kinda gay and anti skill.
@ThomasTheDankEngine That is more or less what I was getting across. A quality of life change in terms of Dota balancing. A way to make this hero feel like a 7.30+ hero rather than an older dota hero who seems forgotten, or at least an older hero that doesn't seem to have that newer hero flare that others are getting. But I was more wondering if this lack of QoL features added to chen is purely because they are left alone due to their pickrate and their pickrate is said to be because of their "difficulty" without anyone questioning if their pickrate is also low because they have no new hero flare.
But I do agree with your rng comment. The Kobolds is great, and the ghost and harpy are phenomenal. But I'm not too sure about the vhouls. They feel they need a buff and when the game is really into a sentry ward hard camp/small camp blocking meta, it makes chen even more rng. They should maybe give something to the small wildwings as well or maybe even the ogre bruisers. I also was curious if it was even necessary for the Alpha wolf to really be lvl 5 which makes you need lvl 3 holy persuasion to grab the alpha wolf. Do you really need lvl 4 holy persuasion for the 30% extra damage .
IceFrog really should tune the neutral abilities. Vhouls are useless, hit less than an OoV. It really sucks to depend on RNG for a ghost or harpy when enchantress can stomp any lane with a big creep lvl 1. It feels like icefrog just forgets about those things. I really miss the time when you could grab a net + a few centaurs and actually GANK someone as Chen. Now you get centaurs and lane phase is over and you cant stun people reliably. It just became a Doom skill. Now auras only and Ice Armor and fuck micro. BORING. Ancient Persuasion on Shard is the only good thing chen got since the days of 30s CD Hand of God and your spell immune ancients are full hp (good days...). And it took a looong time to happen, a long time for IceFrog to notice that his Ancient Persuasion Scepter was dogshit and none would spend 4200g to feed ancients that die instantly. Now we pay 1400g for that. Yay.
And meepo is just frustrating to play. I spam him, I can usually win but boy ohboy. When I was Ancient 2 I could win most games on meepo, a stomp. Divided We Stand was so nerfed it makes me cry. Besides, IceFrog just keeps adding more and more stupid AoE control, and more and more Shards/Scepters/Talents that hard counters meepo. Even with last pick you always play against at least 2 strong counters, or 3 decent ones because now every other hero has a stupid AoE. I preffer to play against Shaker+Axe+Sven than facing a Riki 100% uptime 80% miss smoke, or a Legion Shard that instantly deals 2x EchoSlam damage with no cooldown.
Meepo now is just painful to play. I can win? Yes. But I have to play with 150% brainpower because if I die twice, I loose and every game there is a hard counter and Scepter isnt that great of a save.
I dont think I play a worse meepo than my Ancient days. But games are way harder. I have a much easier time stomping archons with Tinker, who has basically the same counters since 2011, than Meepo, who is countered by 40% of the current heropool in some way, and is much harder to play and punishes mistakes way harder
The solution? Idk. A scepter that makes active items like bkb/linkens/lotus affect all meepos? Increase the %XP again? Maybe a new stat efficient item? Idk. Removing heroes from dota is a no-go so...meepo is in a much harder game for him than ever
Lets not forget other meepo problem: NEUTRAL ITEMS. He probably is the worst hero for neutrals. Ive seen myself holding a pigpole until tier 4.
Tier 3 has NO STAT ITEMS WHATSOEVER.
Tier 4: ONLY Ninja Gear. If you dont drop it, good luck holding your Vambrace/Aquila/Pupils (IF you dropped them hahaha) until the Tier 5 hits, by then you missed your powerspyke by 35min hahaha
Also, the old scepter would give +1 clone and 100%xp share, because it was 30% by default.
Now it is 30% by default again, meepo has less stats, and you cant do shit about it. The Scepter DIG is decent, but if your enemy isolates one meepo, you will watch it die while the others are afk underground. Sure, the same can happen if you try to Poof away but now you paid 4200g and wasted a slot. The Shard is garbage.
Meepo is just in a sad place
tbh tinker shield should be removed or something or nerfed
i tink meepo and chen is great design tho
I think they should buff Holy Persuation so you can pick Centaur and Tomato on lvl 3 not on lvl 5 when you should already have helped ganking 3 people by that time.
@lex
That change would be too convenient. I think icefrog prefers bad gake design
Would be cool if Chen ultimate is the creep control skill that would allow him to get ancient creeps early on. And his global heal would be the 3rd skill but is only allowed to heal 1 hero on the map.
@lex
That change would be too convenient. I think icefrog prefers bad gake design
You could even get satyr on lvl 1 for years. (lvl 5 creep) Then they changed it so you could get tomato at lvl 5 and satyr on lvl 7 which is already useless at this time. But still if you were lucky on lvl 1 - you could grab Harpy with Chainlightning from small camp that you could spam. But it was too OP so they nerfed Harpy HP and her mana pool, so you cant harass much with it. And if you play vs decent support, he will block his own small camp and make you useless through whole laning stage if you pick it for pos 4.
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Just looking at Meepo and Chen they aren't necessarily "bad" heroes. In the right hands they are very good. But I always feel that some sort of "old dota" mechanic lingers behind them and they don't get any sort of love. They seem stagnate in the way they play and I think that might be the problem in comparison to where dota is now. Chen's creeps are slow and usually skips boots to match their movement speeds and meepo needs blink and I've yet to see anyone use his shard in replacement of it.
The reason I bring this up is because of their .9-2% pick rate. And I think if there are any outdated problems with the hero, they're swept under the rug because people think the ONLY reason they're not played is because of their difficulty. I feel this is a missed opportunity for Dota to remake them to make them fun without getting rid of too much of their micro difficulty. But as the games starts turning into more dash like abilitys and mobility, especially with the addition to marci and void spirit. These heroes need some boost in my opinion.