you really don'0t need good reaction time/ reflexes
you really just need to understand the game, like average and under average reaction-time/reflexes are fine.
you just need to understand the game and have plans to win for a lot of situations.
when i ask the average 3k some question that requires thinking, they just break down.
example: https://www.dotabuff.com/topics/2016-12-09-remake
i asked a couple of simple questions: how do you win a game, how do you plan some X hero, how do you counter that X hero with some Y hero, and how would the X hero deal with his counter Y.
as you can see the majority of the answers(even if i didn't want to comment on them) instantly just broke down.
and with that i mean they either made the answers inconsistent/contradictive, or just short and incomplete.
rare scenarios there had good/working answers.
you could ask the same questions to a higher player and he could answer them with good precision.
realistically it's all 1 question: How do you plan to win a game where someone's actively countering you.
example from your post: you mention point 4, aggressiveness, how important it is but you don't understand it, and if you realistically look at it you can go to 4k just by knowing when to push your advantage/how to be aggressive.
on a serious note the largest different between a lower skilled and higher skilled players is that better players will actually take objectives when its possible. either they will win a fight and take as many buildings as they can right away, or they realize that the enemy simply cannot fight them at that point in the game, and they will group up and push (like with drow) instead of just farming and letting the enemy possibly catch up.
the average game length goes down the higher the mmr.
That's a good point 7.00 and I had originally intended to include that in my original post. I'd say in about 25% of my games there are clear ties when either our team or the opponent should press objectives but just doesn't for whatever stupid reason. I get so annoyed with my teammates. We had one game recently where we took rosh, won a battle mid and likely could have gotten the t2 and rax because there were 2 heroes out for 50-60 seconds but my team inexplicably just went back to farming. This frequently happens and is a major skill difference.
ye one can pretty much play with one hand and not use kb at all, remaining a 5k+ player
reaction time barely matters, its about other stuff. general game sense, id say.
Thank you for the comment cookie. I still have a hard time grasping when to be super aggressive and when not to.
And cookie those are excellent questions you made. I am going to try to answer them to the best of my 3k ability.
i could explain it to you how it works but it'll be pointless.
you need to learn to think for yourself, i'd recommend to grab a couple 6-7k players who spam a hero/role and analyse their games
try to figure out why they do stuff
and i put a giant emphasis on that WHY
because it's simple to spot when/what they do because that's just obvious. but try to figure out why
or you could do the same that i did, think about it for a couple hours
this question: how does one actually win a game?
what do you need to do to win a game?
what i did is i made a list of steps, then i made counters for htose steps, then i countered those counters, and then i kept countering and counter countering till i hit a plateau where there's no more counters, but only equivalent trades.
so there, i answered half the question for you. all you gotta do is figure out those answers.
u can't be 5k and not use keyboard.
ofc game sense and that stuff matters most. you can be slow reflexes and still be high mmr, but playing without a keyboard is a terrible idea. i guarantee if you pick a random 7k player and make him play 100 games without his keyboard he will have 20% winrate.
even if a 7k is playing in 5k bracket i figure 40% winrate.
yep, that was literally my first answer XD 7.00
but then, how do you kill their ancient if it's blocked by t4, then how do you kill t4 if it's blocked by t3 and so forth...
then when you think about it, ok how do i even break a t1 when the enemy is defending it? how do i get to kill the enemy? how do i not die trying? what do i need to do that?
and hten when you get all those answers, now it's time to counter that.
and when you counter all that you go back to your primary set of answers to counter that countering.
i'd recommend making a flow chart if your memory is bad
hi old man. yea i like your analysis. except i too don't think reaction matters. it is more about attention and anticipation. if you knew exactly when someone might blink on you, you would be more ready to react. if you are not ready to react,weren't paying attention, you are bound to react slow AF.
also smokes don't matter in 2k/3k. or they rarely matter. just because of how inefficient games are. in high level games smokes can be game deciding because when everyone is playing optimally, whoever gets the better initiation gets the better objectives. objectives = games. but not in 2/3k. u might win a fight, but there's still plenty of outcomes that are possible. hence why u dont see many smokes.
for farming yea, of course pros are gonna be better. they are just better able to utilise the lane during laning, and the overall map during mid game. it translates to earlier item timings. and item timings are very important in higher level games. of course picks don';t matter because as i said, if players are not being as efficient as possible, then plenty of outcomes exist. doesnt matter if u have a shit draft. if you try to draft like a pro you'll probably have a hard time in your games, because the way games play out are different. pros draft in a certain way because their games play out in a specific way. your games are drafted in certain ways because they play out in specific ways as well. but i agree that usually wins/loss in equal skilled games can be decided on draft.
Gamesense and knowing the winning conditions are the biggest difference between 3k scrubs and 5k players imo
3k only does what they do best, hoping that shit would not get counterplayed by the enemy team to win
Some 3ks are really good at farming but dogshit in everything else, some 3ks are good at itemization but dogshit at everything else, and so on
5ks know how to capitalize on the enemies' weaknesses and utilize them, and of course they do stupid things less because of their calculations and knowledge
Reflex and reaction time only helps abit like counterinitiating a well executed and disciplined smoke gank
You should never have to rely on your reflex if you know what might come by proper and logical thinking (example = you know the enemy sven is missing from the map, you have manta, you know that he might come to kill you, he comes, you dodge storm hammer with manta)
Anyway, I hope you enjoy hanging around here and I hope you'll stay
Having some mature guy hanging around here is always a good thing
@marlan or you can just last pick WK and play him as a support or carry depending on the team composition and get 40%ish winrate
3ks do not understand when they need to take towers or rosh, they don't understand when they need to save or use buyback, they don't know how to ward based on enemy heroes, they are not aware of the enemy team's timings (lvl 6 nyx, anyone?)
where 4ks play a bit like 5ks but much more sloppy and ragey, it just feels like 3ks are not trying to win. they run around as a group for 25 minutes getting nothing done then have cripplingly low farm and no towers taken
we wouldn't date your daughter because we're either disgusting (see florian) or too old (pretty much everyone else)
@marlan
u r overestimating the importance of kb usage basing on your hero pool. there are quite a lot of heroes that do not require any mechanical reaction.
i tend to eat when playing rather often.
also a 7k player with one semi broken mouse still remains stronger than any 5k guy on literally any hero due to common sense and decision-making capabilities.
If a guy your daughter's age was like you, would you allow him to date your daughter?
^family dotes is not the best. Especially not ranked. i played some games with my cousin (he's 6.1) and he got legit triggered by my "low skill shenanigans".
So we just play overwatch instead now, 2 hero "wombo comboes" are a good.
Smokes matter in 3k except that you should use it to plant deep wards
In my experience playing with lower ranked friends and normal/high skill low priority games there is a gigantic mechanical skill gap. I don't consider myself a really strong mechanical player for my mmr but I can go midlane playing stupid matchups like AM vs Viper and still crush the lane and get double his last hits.
Also another thing is that people play really brainlessly, they don't think about 'why' they do anything, and there is no concept of your opponent trying to be on the next thought level, they just play the game on autopilot. If you ever play a hero like Slark or Storm against lower ranked players it is nearly impossible to lose as they will just walk down sidelanes to try to farm in full vision without ever thinking 'hey if I was a Slark in this game what would I be doing (ganking your ass most likely)'.
Of course there's awful picks and dumb itembuilds but tbh I think that shit persists at all mmr levels, even in my ranked games I pick AM and my midlaner decides we need a PA also rushing BF, or an offlane weaver building full dps, or a solo support earthshaker vs an Axe offlane.
3k play either like terrible retarded 1k/2k or they play like a 4k who's drunk
5 - 6k sometimes play like a 4k. 6k much much less so, by 6k I see players like blitz and capitalist--blitz reallly impressed me with a 11 minute treads and battlefury timing in a 5k avg game (vs a bloodseeker offlane, while I triggered him with my pulling, while I wasn't in lane 24/7). I still see some dumb 6k players who first pick am then get countered and we lose, or pick alch with anti mage and then blame the offlane mirana for leaving her offlane when they feed etc. but overall 6ks are pretty good, you'll notice the difference in a realtime scenario even if they support: will be hard to use your spells on them, they are hard to track down, they'll mess with you, make you use regen and push their limits without vision but still do it safely and then leave when your team comes not because of vision but because they just do know somehow. Better instinct.
As for 5ks, they kinda play like a 4k, so it'll be hard to see the difference, but in the end they just win almost always. That's all I can say for 5k.
Everyone says shit like this "A sven in a heavily contested lane should still have 50 CS minimum at 3k" and it misses the point so hard I can't help getting tilted. The difference between a 3k and a 5k is that a 5k can hit that number against a 5k opponent. 3k doesn't have a fucking prayer of getting 50, yet they'll play against 3k's, hit their 50cs benchmark, and think that it's good enough.
AT low levels two heroes safelane and dual offlane. one person trying to compete with you for cs from your team and other two trying to deny. (some don't even know denying LUL). its difficult to get all creeps and maintain lane if the other person In your team autoattacking and trying to push forward. other two are dumb so they push it back. in the end because of this it should be easy for you to play the lane overall
^^comments can be deleted here, but afterwards it is still displayed that user X is the last one to comment on the topic.
a 5k can hit 50+ against a 6-7k player.
laning doesn't go up that much in the higher brackets
Local [i]shitposter[/i] finds a [b]GUARANTEED[/b]
[i][b]trick[/b] to gain[/i] MMR,
valve hates him!
FIND OUT WHY
e: funnily enough the [.b] and [.i] tags seem broken, i wanted to make the "trick" bold and "trick to gain" in italic but apparently whole "trick to gain" is in both bold and italic
[.i][.b]trick[/b] to gain[/i]
okay after adding the edit it broke down COMPLETELY LMAO
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All –
I am a long-time message board lurker but this is my first post. I am a 40 year-old CPA in California and have been playing dota now for almost 10 years although really only a lot for the past 3. Why do I play dota? Professional sports have really started to bore me in spite of the fact that I played football in college and have been a big fan of the 3 major sports for years. I don’t really have other time consuming hobbies like golf or what not and it really helps me unwind. And yes, I am likely old enough to be your dad! And yes, I have a beautiful 14 year old daughter who will not be dating any of you any time soon!
I have played 2300 games and my mmr currently sits at around 3k. I have been as high as 3600 but for some reason this past year all of a sudden I went on a 100 game streak where I lost literally like 66 of 100 games and dropped as low as 2500. I’ve fought back up to 3k which has just been a major slog.
I also watch a lot of pro dota matches just because I find it interesting. I have also been watching my wife’s cousin play a bit while waiting to play in the same lobby (he is 36 and is a licensed fellow actuary) and I’ve found the contrast in the game compared to pro games to be striking (of course).
One of the most common posts/questions I see is what the differences are between 2k/3k and 5k are and how one gets from my level up to 5k. We usually see generic answers like “2kers don’t ward or you don’t buy dust”, but I think it’s much more nuanced than that. After spending way too much time thinking about it, here are some of the differences I’ve witnessed in skill level between my trash tier and the slightly higher tiers (some are more important than others):
1. 2kers/3kers really don’t utilize smoke ganks very often. I make sure to always have one for my team and to use it but beyond just not utilizing smoke ganks the 2kers/3kers take forever to get together for a smoke gank. We also don’t have a good sense for when to use one (i.e., when you’re at a space disadvantage and you can see where at least 1-2 enemies on the map).
2. Last hitting – by the time you hit minute 15-18 last hitting skill almost becomes irrelevant because even at our level you’re not just farming lanes statically (I see pros tend to lose focus a bit when just farming alone at like minute 25-30 likely because they’re very concerned about ganks and what they can’t see on the map – they’ll end up missing 10-15 last hits in a 40 minute game they should have gotten had they focused just a bit more but by that time 300 gold won’t really make a difference in the outcome of the game). In pro games or higher level matches players will just have 20-25% more CS by minute 12 which is another 20-25 creeps. In a global sense the extra 800-1000 gold they’ll have doesn’t determine the game by itself but it does provide a bit of a level advantage (making sure creeps are not denied) and provides some type of early/mid-game item with an earlier timing that will help determine the outcome of the first fight or two. As a sven in a ff lane I should have around 100 last hits whether I’m 3k or 5k (if I can’t do that then I’m 1k). A sven in a heavily contested lane should still have 50 CS minimum at 3k, however again I find at the higher MMR levels that same sven in a contested lane will still have another 20-25 CS just due to last hitting skill and proper knowledge in how and when to agro the creeps. This would go for any HC – the higher skill levels are just better last hitters which give them a better itemization advantage when encountering the earlier team fights.
3. Aggressiveness – I sometimes play with a couple of 4kers and it’s immediately apparent how much more aggressive the opposing teams are in pushing an advantage and/or jumping positional mistakes. I wish I could give precise examples about how this works but it’s just a sense I get. Teams do a better job of understanding when they have a net worth/experience lead and then jumping on it.
4. Positioning – I have read guides on positioning and watched videos on positioning – there are advanced positioning techniques that I don’t fully grasp even – I watched one “Good boy” video where as a storm spirit he knew who he could kill on the map based on which heroes were showing, where they were in proximity of the towers, and who had tp’d where within the past 30 seconds. It was incredible. Better players just are able to track more information that the map presents. One thing I try to do as a support is rarely show on the map unless it’s a team fight just because in theory the enemy team will be more cautious in its movements and farm if it can’t see the supports (although again at 3k we’re all shit stains anyway so who knows if that actually helps out).
5. Picks – I’m about done with pub dota because the picks are so terribly bad. Now, at 3k everything works at all times, weird hero combinations, fighting into direct hero counters, etc. because we all kinda suck but I still feel that the picks will determine the game literally about 80% of the time. I support in 50% of all my games because I really and truly try to make the pick that either synergizes really well with our team or is a hard counter against one of the other heroes the enemy team has picked (i.e., picking AA into a huskar or alchemist, bane into a sven, Shadow demon with luna, etc). I find it very frustrating when I see first pick AMs, Pas, etc. Right along with this is itemization that makes sense given the position you’re in. I was in one such frustrating game last week where we really needed an offlaner with some burst/disable/initiate and the pick was a PA after we already had a jugg in the safe lane. Ok. It frustrated me a bit but heck, PA with dagger/blink/ulti and a Deso could maybe give us enough burst. Instead? Our jugg went for BF (which isn’t totally in excusable) but the PA also chose to go for BF instead of deso which just killed us in trying to fight. PA pick was bad but the itemization was even worse given our team composition and especially given that the jugg already had gone for a farming build.
6. Mechanical skills/reaction time – I spent way too much time reading about the game and feel I have good general concepts of positioning/support responsibilities of warding, vision, maintaining creep equilibrium for my carry, when to be there for them and when to leave/stack/etc. Mechanical skill and reaction time is my weak point and what keeps me at 3k (I think) – sometimes I’ll get hooked by a pudge who won’t immediately dismember. Sometimes I am able to escape while other times after a brief delay he’ll dismember. This means the person who hooked me just didn’t have good enough mechanical ability with their fingers to hook/dismember at once. I’ve been hooked as a weaver many times before and there are many times I’ll get away because the pudge just doesn’t have a good enough reaction time to dismember me after the hook.
Or let’s say I’m an AM – you’ll see pros have a flawless execution of blink/manta/abyssal/ulti nearly in unison whereas a shit stain like myself will blink, abyssal first, then manta as opposed to it being just this flawless thing done all at once. This just mean one or two hits fewer than if I had blinked/manta’d all at once which could mean a dramatically less impactful ulti or might give the other player a chance to respond before dying. My conclusion is many of the 3kers just aren’t nearly as flawless in mechanically operating the keyboard and/or their reaction times aren’t as good. I know as axe I’ve ulti’d many a creep instead of the hero I was trying to ulti because my fingers just didn’t get it done!
Well – I hope you all enjoy my analysis. I personally think my mmr ceiling is probably in the mid 3ks, possibly 4k just because my mechanical skill and reaction times aren’t nearly as proficient as those in the higher MMR brackets. One final note is that I feel there has been a lot of skill inflation in the past couple of years – I calibrated at 2500 and currently sit at 3000 even though I am light years better now than before. My only thought behind this is that as the game has existed longer that the average players are just getting better.
I would love to see some higher level players give other examples about what they think differentiates 3k and 5k players without answers of just "you don't ward".