for utility, drums vlad blinks and AC should be enough, anything beyond that is luxury (u wont be farming much), hover around the edge of the area during clashes and use ur skills to maximum effect, going in and out of the fight constantly
game 2, main idea is about how to engage the enemy constantly without letting them to group up (force skirmishes everywhere on the map), kill the enemy fast enough before reinforcement and the kite train arrives, and run like a bitch to disengage as soon as possible when they do come.. so blink dagger and MoM would be ur core item early to mid game, beyond that just build according to your needs (dont forget to include mkb too tho)
what [BB] mentioned is a good possible alternative strat too if u prefer to play a more teamfight oriented game instead of gank-skirmish one.. that being said, mana pool would be a problem with that item build cmiiw
@[BB]CardonaNotta Okay thanks for clearing that up man. Although it does look good on paper I can see two problems with that build.
First, mana issues. I had about 1050 Mana when I reached the peak of my strength as a carry. That already includes the Manta + Diffusal Int bonuses. Now my ulti takes 350 mana, refresher 375, I don't know for SE. So let's say I blink onto the enemy Sniper + Weaver, who, let's say, has Relapse on CD. SE Break, ulti 350, refresh 375, ulti again for 350. That's 1075 mana(!), 25 mana larger than my own whole pool and that's not including two SE activations and my Bladefury + Ward. Yes I am aware SE has an ultimate orb which gives another 120 mana but my Ward alone uses 135 mana, Bladefury 90. Oh Haffy why not bring a Mango? This brings me to the second problem:
Inventory slots. For the last part of the game Warlock neglected to buy support stuff, idk ke prolly gave up. So I had to carry the Dust in order to deal with Weaver, who, on top of Shukuchi, had Relapse to work with. So Refresher + Silver Edge + Phase Boots + [T]issue [P]aper/Dust + Diffusal + Manta. Can't really do much with that unless ofcourse I sell my Phase for a BoT, but I don't have the resources to buy that.
Maybe this build could work if I got like a Drums or a Skadi, any other items that give Int while benefiting an Agi carry. The fault is with me however because I wasn't too open-minded about my item build, will remember this idea when I'll be against 2+ glass cannons in the another match.
Thanks for the input, no worries about being snappish everyone gets like that once in a while. Your thought process is still legit, don't worry lol
PS. Chill bro your shit's good and I know how shitty having a headache can be. My PMA turns to --> salty 2k SEA Server player whenever I get a headache lmao.
@ilmimi Yeah utility heroes at most can get 2-3 core items, in this case for Juggernaut Drums, Vlads and Blink? Not even sure if I can farm up an AC if I die so many times. Hmm so just be little bugger? Okay it's clear I'm not going to pull out massive crits with this build but I do see the importance of an active level 4 Ward healing the entire team for its whole duration, especially since people, amidst the confusion, don't really notice my cute little cat.
Okay I'll have to play Rat Dota, but instead of ratting towers I'll be ratting heroes? SeemsGood no kappa. Also since it's obvious mid game that'll be when I have to start being active in the map, is it worth it to get a 3rd item BoT? ik it's mainly for people who are ratting but not only it provides a means to splitpush I can hunt people more often bcs of the CD. Thoughts?
Also what do you think of Hurricane Pike as a utility item? idk but everyone seems to be building it now I don't see why not for Juggernaut. (it rhymes holy fucking shit).
Thanks for the input man, really happy to good players participate in this thread.
BoT 3rd item is no good, better use that 2k gold for a yasha or something.. your dps needs to always stay ahead of their tankiness' natural progression over time
nah, dont go pike.. jst go for a casual force staff if u really really REALLY need extra manuverability, or if ur team is just desperate for a way to break enemy's linkens.. that said, there's still tons of better option
Yeah, your Warlock kind of went from 1 recipe to complete Refresher to let's make a wild Orchid for the giggles.
And yes, I can certainly see your mana problems, but through and through, I never thought you would get a Healing Ward or Bladefury off in the middle of a Weaver/Sniper anyway. The moment you drop down from ult without invis at that point, that Weaver/Sniper are going to turn on you and your ward. Fast.
The actual fixes for the mana problem would range from Soul Ring, Blade Mail, and Shiva's. And then the obvious Manta, Skadi, and Diffusal. The first 3 are not an easy fix to put on a Jugs and way outside any think box I've seen in my bracket. First and foremost, this requires a competent team that wants to win bad enough to carry reveal.
Mana wise, this would have to come down to one of those games where you save your mana for precise use of items/skills. Soul Ring, SE, Ult, Refresh, Soul Ring, SE, Ult. You would most likely have to go Phase Boots, Soul Ring, Silver Edge, Skadi, Refresher Orb, TP/Reveal. At level 16 with these specific items, it is in fact doable using the precise order of the above item/skill use.
Soul Ring is the easiest of the rogue 3 to imagine. It's cheap and it provides a decent mana regen active effect as well as healing you during farm; it also provides 300 mana a team fight if you do go Refresher. I like to think Blade Mail would deter a Weaver/Sniper peep show and a Shiva's could keep everyone in the middle of the mess for your team fighters to cause havoc. Shiva's versatility lies in the active effect it as about as much as it does for your mana pool providing an aoe slow and 400 damage a refreshed team fight. Not to mention: Silver Edge strike/Shiva's/Skadi.
@[BB]CardonaNotta The build can and will work but is one of the most situational builds I have ever seen, it's so hard to even visualize this but what can we do? Numbers don't lie. Also how about Echo Sabre instead of a Soul Ring? Yes Ecchi Sabre is more profitable when run on slow but hard hitters like Tiny, but the echo attack + Jugg crits seem like a good combination, especially when using an Omnislash. Maybe I'll try this out in a pub game or a bot match, shit will be interesting af no doubt about that.
Okay thanks for the innovative insight man, gonna create a whole new guide tab just for this build lmao
@Between the bars Can you elaborate on why Drums is bad on Agility carries? Yes I can see that it's a barely cost-efficient when placed beside a Bracer, but with Agi carries that have small manapools such as Jugg this might be invaluable.
Tangos + Poor Man's Shield >>> Phase Boots into Echo Sabre >>> Shadow Blade into Silver Edge >>> Utility Diffusal for skill disables >>> Skadi and Butterfly >>> Refresher(needs around 1300 mana pool), replacing Echo Sabre when it is off cool down. Might require Jugs to be in the high 20's just to be able to pull this off; guess I'll know soon.
Max Q for flash farm with Echo Sabre and gank once I have Shadow Blade whenever ult is off cool down.
Echo worked out pretty well there allowing me to farm with BF whenever it came off cool down. Unfortunately, my farm was lacking in the early game because I had to keep saving my mana and tping in to help my team.
Loss or no, I really enjoyed this one. Basically a rat to death by Luna every time I went off to murder one of her team mates. Refresher was nice, but I screwed up both the times I used on either Manta or a Shadow Blade. I should mention I was solo both times, trying to man mode the entire world.
Mana wise, I had 1680 by level 22 with Diffusal, Skadi, Echo, SE, and Phase. I definitely had the mana for the SE/ULT/REFRESH/SE/ULT combo.
And Silver Edge helped a lot with Riki and Tiny, though I did first hit bash myself a couple times breaking Tiny's CE. All in all, a pretty good first run. I'll run it a dozen times or so and see what the final results are before judgement.
@[BB]CardonaNotta slr I just read this while browsing the forums. Anyways thanks for taking the time to actually test your build out! I think that's the difference between actual theory crafters and wannabes: real crafters are willing and actually do their sample size for games. Kudos to your effort man, really interesting. Tell me more when you play more games, would like to follow the results.
I know I suggested Echo Sabre, but do you think Dragon Lance could work for the stats part? The main problem with the Refresher build is that it lacks mana to efficiently execute while having a reasonable amount left for an instant magic-immunity or a 4 second full HP heal for the whole team. Yes the Ecchi Sabre is great for farming/fighting but Jugg's BAT of 1.4 doesn't seem to need an upgrade. Also does it guarantee an attack in between slashes of Omnislash?
Taken from same level and same creep camp (HELLBEAR) on a level 10 Juggernaut.
Battlefury 4500 Net Worth = 8 seconds (4500 total)
Battlefury 4500 Net Worth + Aquila 985 Net Worth= 6 seconds (5485 total)
Echo Sabre 2650 Net Worth + 2 Blades of Alacrity 2000 Net Worth = 15 seconds (4650 total)
Echo Sabre 2650 Net Worth + Iron Talon 500 Net Worth + Wraith Band 485 Net Worth = 9 seconds (3635 total)
Echo Sabre 2650 Net Worth + Iron Talon 500 Net Worth + Aquila 985 Net Worth = 7.5 seconds (4135 total)
Echo Sabre 2650 Net Worth + Dragon Lance 1900 Net Worth + Basilius 500 Net Worth = 13 seconds (5050 total)
Echo Sabre 2650 Net Worth + Dragon Lance 1900 Net Worth + Iron Talon 500 Net Worth = 8 seconds (5050 total)
Desolator 3500 Net Worth + Aquila 985 Net Worth = 8 seconds (4485 total)
Desolator 3500 Net Worth + Aquila 985 Net Worth + Iron Talon 500 Net Worth = 5.5 seconds (4985 total)
Aquila adds 0.65 mana regen
Basilius adds 0.65 mana regen
Battlefury alone adds 2 mana regen
Battlefury and Aquila combined add 3 mana regen
Aquila and Echo Sabre combined add 2.5 mana regen
Basilius and Echo Sabre combined add 2.5 mana regen
Echo Sabre alone adds 1.6 mana regen
I think without hitting the point of diminishing returns and maintaining any semblance of farming mana, Echo Sabre, Iron Talon, and Ring of Aquila average the best rate of farm when combined together. Echo Sabre, Iron Talon, and Dragon Lance is slightly more expensive, but can lead into Hurricane Pike if that's what you're looking to do.
Technically speaking, you would have around 200 more hp and slightly faster attack speed with Dragon Lance if you took that over Aquila, but it would cost more and offer less mana regen.
You can easily make either Iron Talon, Wraith Band, or Basilius your starting item as well if you don't want to do Poor Man's Shield or Stout Shield and Quelling Blade.
P.S. While Soul Ring hasn't exactly been a great pick up item on Jugs so far, if you have Healing Ward and Bladefury both maxed, it is a reasonable pick up for a fast finish line up. Nothing like hitting Soul Ring, tanking and flash farming an entire creep wave, then bringing out Healing Ward and watching all that hp come back without any real damage done to your mana pool.
I'm gonna continue spamming Juggernaut now, thanks for all the input guys, so helpful!
With all of this data and hard information the only thing missing is the improvement of my mechanical skill and game sense, but yes I understand it takes time for that. Will work on it ASAP.
Mostly false item build imo
Aghanim is trash most of the time and in this case it's even worse
Why would you try to be a walking ult like tidehunter when you can become more than that? AM and PA can blink out of your ult easily and the point of having agha is to remove the enemy carry cleanly anyway
That game you could've gone for blink abyssal manta (you could remove blink if you're just scared of the slot problems)
Diffusal is good on that match and it works well with the items listed above(rip warlock golem XD)
MKB against PA is pretty much mandatory as a right clicker
I am also polishing my juggernaut btw,so good luck,and enjoy this great hero ;)
Isn't echo sabre too inneficient for juggernaut?
Echo sabre is made for slow hitting pricks for extra dps like sven,slark,or LS
Jug already has a high AS,why not utilise it?
@RussianPinoy Hey man this build we made is just pure theorycrafting, we happened to commit to it when we talked about the efficiency of Refresher-oriented Juggernaut when against multiple glass cannons, which as you may know, happens 8/10 games in NS SEA. Game here: http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2631945725
Anyways yeah I've got enough input to work with, I've already played 5 games where I applied where I have learned, 3 wins lost 2. The main problem I see is team cooperation, nothing wrong with the hero and I believe I can and will snowball if I get matched against players that have similar skill to me, lol.
Yeah I'd like to play but be warned, my party MMR is 1600, not far from my original solo MMR calib tbh (1400, now 2300) but I wasn't able to grind more MMR because my friends don't always play the same time as me.
for utility, drums vlad blinks and AC should be enough, anything beyond that is luxury (u wont be farming much), hover around the edge of the area during clashes and use ur skills to maximum effect, going in and out of the fight constantly
game 2, main idea is about how to engage the enemy constantly without letting them to group up (force skirmishes everywhere on the map), kill the enemy fast enough before reinforcement and the kite train arrives, and run like a bitch to disengage as soon as possible when they do come.. so blink dagger and MoM would be ur core item early to mid game, beyond that just build according to your needs (dont forget to include mkb too tho)
what [BB] mentioned is a good possible alternative strat too if u prefer to play a more teamfight oriented game instead of gank-skirmish one.. that being said, mana pool would be a problem with that item build cmiiw
@[BB]CardonaNotta Okay thanks for clearing that up man. Although it does look good on paper I can see two problems with that build.
First, mana issues. I had about 1050 Mana when I reached the peak of my strength as a carry. That already includes the Manta + Diffusal Int bonuses. Now my ulti takes 350 mana, refresher 375, I don't know for SE. So let's say I blink onto the enemy Sniper + Weaver, who, let's say, has Relapse on CD. SE Break, ulti 350, refresh 375, ulti again for 350. That's 1075 mana(!), 25 mana larger than my own whole pool and that's not including two SE activations and my Bladefury + Ward. Yes I am aware SE has an ultimate orb which gives another 120 mana but my Ward alone uses 135 mana, Bladefury 90. Oh Haffy why not bring a Mango? This brings me to the second problem:
Inventory slots. For the last part of the game Warlock neglected to buy support stuff, idk ke prolly gave up. So I had to carry the Dust in order to deal with Weaver, who, on top of Shukuchi, had Relapse to work with. So Refresher + Silver Edge + Phase Boots + [T]issue [P]aper/Dust + Diffusal + Manta. Can't really do much with that unless ofcourse I sell my Phase for a BoT, but I don't have the resources to buy that.
Maybe this build could work if I got like a Drums or a Skadi, any other items that give Int while benefiting an Agi carry. The fault is with me however because I wasn't too open-minded about my item build, will remember this idea when I'll be against 2+ glass cannons in the another match.
Thanks for the input, no worries about being snappish everyone gets like that once in a while. Your thought process is still legit, don't worry lol
PS. Chill bro your shit's good and I know how shitty having a headache can be. My PMA turns to --> salty 2k SEA Server player whenever I get a headache lmao.
@ilmimi Yeah utility heroes at most can get 2-3 core items, in this case for Juggernaut Drums, Vlads and Blink? Not even sure if I can farm up an AC if I die so many times. Hmm so just be little bugger? Okay it's clear I'm not going to pull out massive crits with this build but I do see the importance of an active level 4 Ward healing the entire team for its whole duration, especially since people, amidst the confusion, don't really notice my cute little cat.
Okay I'll have to play Rat Dota, but instead of ratting towers I'll be ratting heroes? SeemsGood no kappa. Also since it's obvious mid game that'll be when I have to start being active in the map, is it worth it to get a 3rd item BoT? ik it's mainly for people who are ratting but not only it provides a means to splitpush I can hunt people more often bcs of the CD. Thoughts?
Also what do you think of Hurricane Pike as a utility item? idk but everyone seems to be building it now I don't see why not for Juggernaut. (it rhymes holy fucking shit).
Thanks for the input man, really happy to good players participate in this thread.
If you buy drum on this hero you should be executed honestly, that goes for all agi carries this version.
BoT 3rd item is no good, better use that 2k gold for a yasha or something.. your dps needs to always stay ahead of their tankiness' natural progression over time
nah, dont go pike.. jst go for a casual force staff if u really really REALLY need extra manuverability, or if ur team is just desperate for a way to break enemy's linkens.. that said, there's still tons of better option
Yeah, your Warlock kind of went from 1 recipe to complete Refresher to let's make a wild Orchid for the giggles.
And yes, I can certainly see your mana problems, but through and through, I never thought you would get a Healing Ward or Bladefury off in the middle of a Weaver/Sniper anyway. The moment you drop down from ult without invis at that point, that Weaver/Sniper are going to turn on you and your ward. Fast.
The actual fixes for the mana problem would range from Soul Ring, Blade Mail, and Shiva's. And then the obvious Manta, Skadi, and Diffusal. The first 3 are not an easy fix to put on a Jugs and way outside any think box I've seen in my bracket. First and foremost, this requires a competent team that wants to win bad enough to carry reveal.
Mana wise, this would have to come down to one of those games where you save your mana for precise use of items/skills. Soul Ring, SE, Ult, Refresh, Soul Ring, SE, Ult. You would most likely have to go Phase Boots, Soul Ring, Silver Edge, Skadi, Refresher Orb, TP/Reveal. At level 16 with these specific items, it is in fact doable using the precise order of the above item/skill use.
Soul Ring is the easiest of the rogue 3 to imagine. It's cheap and it provides a decent mana regen active effect as well as healing you during farm; it also provides 300 mana a team fight if you do go Refresher. I like to think Blade Mail would deter a Weaver/Sniper peep show and a Shiva's could keep everyone in the middle of the mess for your team fighters to cause havoc. Shiva's versatility lies in the active effect it as about as much as it does for your mana pool providing an aoe slow and 400 damage a refreshed team fight. Not to mention: Silver Edge strike/Shiva's/Skadi.
@[BB]CardonaNotta The build can and will work but is one of the most situational builds I have ever seen, it's so hard to even visualize this but what can we do? Numbers don't lie. Also how about Echo Sabre instead of a Soul Ring? Yes Ecchi Sabre is more profitable when run on slow but hard hitters like Tiny, but the echo attack + Jugg crits seem like a good combination, especially when using an Omnislash. Maybe I'll try this out in a pub game or a bot match, shit will be interesting af no doubt about that.
Okay thanks for the innovative insight man, gonna create a whole new guide tab just for this build lmao
@Between the bars Can you elaborate on why Drums is bad on Agility carries? Yes I can see that it's a barely cost-efficient when placed beside a Bracer, but with Agi carries that have small manapools such as Jugg this might be invaluable.
I'll make a Jugs smurf to test this build.
Tangos + Poor Man's Shield >>> Phase Boots into Echo Sabre >>> Shadow Blade into Silver Edge >>> Utility Diffusal for skill disables >>> Skadi and Butterfly >>> Refresher(needs around 1300 mana pool), replacing Echo Sabre when it is off cool down. Might require Jugs to be in the high 20's just to be able to pull this off; guess I'll know soon.
Max Q for flash farm with Echo Sabre and gank once I have Shadow Blade whenever ult is off cool down.
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2640023085
Echo worked out pretty well there allowing me to farm with BF whenever it came off cool down. Unfortunately, my farm was lacking in the early game because I had to keep saving my mana and tping in to help my team.
Loss or no, I really enjoyed this one. Basically a rat to death by Luna every time I went off to murder one of her team mates. Refresher was nice, but I screwed up both the times I used on either Manta or a Shadow Blade. I should mention I was solo both times, trying to man mode the entire world.
Mana wise, I had 1680 by level 22 with Diffusal, Skadi, Echo, SE, and Phase. I definitely had the mana for the SE/ULT/REFRESH/SE/ULT combo.
And Silver Edge helped a lot with Riki and Tiny, though I did first hit bash myself a couple times breaking Tiny's CE. All in all, a pretty good first run. I'll run it a dozen times or so and see what the final results are before judgement.
@[BB]CardonaNotta slr I just read this while browsing the forums. Anyways thanks for taking the time to actually test your build out! I think that's the difference between actual theory crafters and wannabes: real crafters are willing and actually do their sample size for games. Kudos to your effort man, really interesting. Tell me more when you play more games, would like to follow the results.
I know I suggested Echo Sabre, but do you think Dragon Lance could work for the stats part? The main problem with the Refresher build is that it lacks mana to efficiently execute while having a reasonable amount left for an instant magic-immunity or a 4 second full HP heal for the whole team. Yes the Ecchi Sabre is great for farming/fighting but Jugg's BAT of 1.4 doesn't seem to need an upgrade. Also does it guarantee an attack in between slashes of Omnislash?
Been really helpful man, thanks.
Taken from same level and same creep camp (HELLBEAR) on a level 10 Juggernaut.
Battlefury 4500 Net Worth = 8 seconds (4500 total)
Battlefury 4500 Net Worth + Aquila 985 Net Worth= 6 seconds (5485 total)
Echo Sabre 2650 Net Worth + 2 Blades of Alacrity 2000 Net Worth = 15 seconds (4650 total)
Echo Sabre 2650 Net Worth + Iron Talon 500 Net Worth + Wraith Band 485 Net Worth = 9 seconds (3635 total)
Echo Sabre 2650 Net Worth + Iron Talon 500 Net Worth + Aquila 985 Net Worth = 7.5 seconds (4135 total)
Echo Sabre 2650 Net Worth + Dragon Lance 1900 Net Worth + Basilius 500 Net Worth = 13 seconds (5050 total)
Echo Sabre 2650 Net Worth + Dragon Lance 1900 Net Worth + Iron Talon 500 Net Worth = 8 seconds (5050 total)
Desolator 3500 Net Worth + Aquila 985 Net Worth = 8 seconds (4485 total)
Desolator 3500 Net Worth + Aquila 985 Net Worth + Iron Talon 500 Net Worth = 5.5 seconds (4985 total)
Aquila adds 0.65 mana regen
Basilius adds 0.65 mana regen
Battlefury alone adds 2 mana regen
Battlefury and Aquila combined add 3 mana regen
Aquila and Echo Sabre combined add 2.5 mana regen
Basilius and Echo Sabre combined add 2.5 mana regen
Echo Sabre alone adds 1.6 mana regen
I think without hitting the point of diminishing returns and maintaining any semblance of farming mana, Echo Sabre, Iron Talon, and Ring of Aquila average the best rate of farm when combined together. Echo Sabre, Iron Talon, and Dragon Lance is slightly more expensive, but can lead into Hurricane Pike if that's what you're looking to do.
Technically speaking, you would have around 200 more hp and slightly faster attack speed with Dragon Lance if you took that over Aquila, but it would cost more and offer less mana regen.
You can easily make either Iron Talon, Wraith Band, or Basilius your starting item as well if you don't want to do Poor Man's Shield or Stout Shield and Quelling Blade.
P.S. While Soul Ring hasn't exactly been a great pick up item on Jugs so far, if you have Healing Ward and Bladefury both maxed, it is a reasonable pick up for a fast finish line up. Nothing like hitting Soul Ring, tanking and flash farming an entire creep wave, then bringing out Healing Ward and watching all that hp come back without any real damage done to your mana pool.
@[BB] Cardona Thanks man that's all I need to know
I'm gonna continue spamming Juggernaut now, thanks for all the input guys, so helpful!
With all of this data and hard information the only thing missing is the improvement of my mechanical skill and game sense, but yes I understand it takes time for that. Will work on it ASAP.
PS I'm so ready for Juggernaut arcana lol
Mostly false item build imo
Aghanim is trash most of the time and in this case it's even worse
Why would you try to be a walking ult like tidehunter when you can become more than that? AM and PA can blink out of your ult easily and the point of having agha is to remove the enemy carry cleanly anyway
That game you could've gone for blink abyssal manta (you could remove blink if you're just scared of the slot problems)
Diffusal is good on that match and it works well with the items listed above(rip warlock golem XD)
MKB against PA is pretty much mandatory as a right clicker
I am also polishing my juggernaut btw,so good luck,and enjoy this great hero ;)
Isn't echo sabre too inneficient for juggernaut?
Echo sabre is made for slow hitting pricks for extra dps like sven,slark,or LS
Jug already has a high AS,why not utilise it?
It's refreshing to see another NS player who is willing to improve
Let's might play together sometimes if you want
@RussianPinoy Hey man this build we made is just pure theorycrafting, we happened to commit to it when we talked about the efficiency of Refresher-oriented Juggernaut when against multiple glass cannons, which as you may know, happens 8/10 games in NS SEA. Game here: http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2631945725
Anyways yeah I've got enough input to work with, I've already played 5 games where I applied where I have learned, 3 wins lost 2. The main problem I see is team cooperation, nothing wrong with the hero and I believe I can and will snowball if I get matched against players that have similar skill to me, lol.
Yeah I'd like to play but be warned, my party MMR is 1600, not far from my original solo MMR calib tbh (1400, now 2300) but I wasn't able to grind more MMR because my friends don't always play the same time as me.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/potanginamoakomid Add me lmao