dagg can catch your enemies faster and no worries about dust , etc
slark can build dagger if enemies didn't have DOT
Idk... i'd say sb/se makes a better glove fit than dagger in a really few cases, one being with slark since it makes really good synergy with his ult passive. Also windwalking makes for a better escape even if the enemy has dust since he should be able to debuff himself with dark pact. It's easier to fail escapes with dagger since it gets deactivated with player sourced damage. But as engaging tool it sure is more fun than a shadow blade.
![S[En]dai](https://steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/steamcommunity/public/images/avatars/0a/0a2825bdc36f69d4f14a240aa16e2978cb4c1951_full.jpg "S[En]dai")
I played Dagger Slark pre-6.84. And ppl tell me it's stupid. I made a simple build-guide in 6.84, and not a lot of people actually liked it. Some of my friends actually see it viable, but in most pub games, they just don't and hate you for building a non-dmg item for a hero that already has a lot of escape and chase.
Now ppl use dagger a lot on Slark now? Srz. If they're just following the popular builds of popular Esports players which have practically done it before tbh, but only being in the spotlight now, then they really have no idea the capability and effectiveness a build has if they never even tried to bother it themselves, before some famous guy next.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=429496010
Here's my item build...which is essentially the same since 6.84, but only added the Iron Talon.
The beauty of Dagger Slark is it's effectiveness to snowball a lot better, as well as escape. A simple Dark Pact then Dagger + Pounce + Dark Pact again(due to short cd and mana cost), is already a decent nuked snowball. So you get 175 bonus dmg with an Sblade during invisible. BIG DEAL. I can deal an extra 125 dmg with Dark Pact during cast + dagger to the enemy. The thing is, long as your competent with your skills, and timing, Dagger Slark is a lot more harder to kill than Sblade, which is simply just running. I've had multiple occasions with Slark where various projectiles and skills would kill me, but I could just disjoint it. If I was simply using an Sblade, a simple true sight/dust would've probably kill me with those projectiles due to decreased ms from dust, and prolonged chased from gem, especially in places where you can't juke.
Slark isn't supposed to be a hard carry. He actually can't keep up with true hard carries like PA. He needs to snowball fights, atk a few times on a carry if that's your main target, back a bit to heal, then attack again. You utilize Essence Shift, you don't necessarily need Atk items.
Now I'm not saying Sblade is stupid...I just think it's really really, obvious, simple, and predictable. It's easy to counter, and most of the times during escape, a 28 sec CD Sblade will have you trying to run for jukes, while a 12 sec CD Dagger will only try you to last atleast 3 secs(assume full CD is complete) for the hit timer to wear off and escape.
Now you can choose to build an SB to branch off to a SE for break against heroes like PA. Or save that extra 2650 for a Demon Edge, and try to pick-off or farm for the other 3000 to actually get a viable late game item against PA, 'cause we all know 5 secs of Break ain't gonna kill a Bloodlusted PA with lifesteal items.
Edit: basically, you try to finish fights and pick-off single wandering heroes ASAP without letting them know you're already there.
I think you farm like a mothetrucker with dagger as well. You need to farm up that sweet skadi fast
@Zaywop
^No it's easy. all you need is to Dagger first, then point on enemy so your lane of range for pounce is directly to him. Try it on bots first.
dag slark is generally better than sb assuming you are good woth the hero. if you do not feel confident, or are just below 5k mmr, ud better not go for blink. its too simple to fuck up with dagger.
my guess would be because of the midas + blink build. if you go midas you wanna farm rather than fight, and blink helps you farm faster than a shadow blade does due to the extra mobility. it seems to be a playstyle difference judging from the dotabuff guides. some people prefer going shadow blade + drum or sny and using SB to get kills, while other players prefer going midas + blink and then rushing a big item like a skadi.
im a shit slark though so im probably wrong
LoL :))) "below 5k mmrs cant land pounce"
Dude, get real, starting with 3k mmr, there are plenty of slark masters, just because the hero is moderately easy.
@귀여운 그릴
Not in a straight 1v1 fight though. PA with crit still hurts massively to any carry for that matter. Slark's dps isn't high enough for him to kill PA faster than a 6-slot locked PA can against him. Auto-attacking one another, PA would win via lifesteal + crit + mkb(assume Bfly Slark) + Abyssal.
In particular, Slark isn't a hard carry. Hard carries are defined being "hard" 'cause they're pretty item dependent. Slark is item dependent, sure, but not as much as carries like AM, and Spectre. That's why Slark mostly shines in the mid-game more than the late game, because he can dominate hard carries before they transition to the late game. Slark isn't a particular counter to atleast a lot of hard carries, while he can counter Jugg, Jugg is very flexible and is mostly considered as a semi, depending on the build.
That's why Slark is better at snowballing, 'cause of his ult and Essence Shift. Which most people don't realize that 120 seconds is enough for you to make full use of it. Attack PA a few times, back a bit, then attack again. Drain PA of his stats, while you're gaining more Agi.
@Androgynous
You can still farm efficiently with a dagger even without a midas. Problem with a lot of Slark players, or atleast people who just try to play Slark, or...practically any hero that can snowball but doesn't even remotely farm a bit, is that they don't farm when they should be. Thing is, you can't always get a solo kill, so atleast farm a bit. This is very problematic for Riki users, since they utilize the passive invi, they try to scout and hunt for solo kills, even if they can't, when they should farm during free time. This is the same for SBlade Slarks as well when they insist on trying to get for a pick-off by looking for a solo enemy for the past 5 mins in the enemy jungle when they should've farm, and just wait for a solo enemy hero wandering around in your minimap.
Slark can farm fast and consistent because of Dark Pact and Shadow Dance. He can flash farm the entire jungle, in under a min, assuming he has the core dps items already. A dagger makes him farm just faster because of mobility, and pre-dagger Dark Pact cast. This should be what Slark players should do if they can't go for a pick-off, and not look around for enemies in the fog all the time.
Your crazy if you don't think slark is a hard carry , sure he relies on snowballing but a 6 slotted slark should shit all over a 6 slotted pa if you got right items . Slark is a 1vs1 master all he is lacking is aoe .
My only problem with slark is his mana. I buy a shit ton of mango b4 finish the skadi.
@Filthy
Hard carries is defined as hard carry for a reason. He's a carry...just not hard.
http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Role#Hard_Carry
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKE72pDhLfc
And no you're not getting the picture here. I'm not saying Slark can't kill PA. He just can't fight PA directly, 'cause PRD Crit is still better than Essence Shift in shorter battles. And no, Slark isn't a 1v1 master. Just because Slark is your most played hero, doesn't mean you should glorify everything about him. If you're telling me I'm underestimating Slark, no I'm not, I'm being realistic about him. You, however is overestimating Slark, and underestimating the 450% Crit damage.
PA still has the advantage of lifesteal + crit, 4 seconds of Shadow Dance can probably keep PA's HP lower for a bit, but once you come out and Satanic + crit's the shit out of Slark, Slark will be forced to back off.
You should try doing it with a friend in a Lobby to test it yourself...or just do it yourself.
Besides, you're in the Normal Bracket who recently just got to High Skill. *preps internet fighting battle suit*
@Look at me. I'm captain now
That's why you buy an Aquila. He's not even that mana-dependent, how do you lose much mana anyways?
Well I actually gank so much when playing sb slark. I really like sb on slark bcoz always check my passive everytime i were in jungle or sb in lane incase of sentry. Maybe i will try dag slark.
slark is a hard carry and needs items to be effective, idk what you are smoking. just cus he can 1v1 someone with more items doesn't mean he is good without items. He needs 2-3 big items to really do anything other than gank.
@DireWolf
So you're saying Jugg is a hard carry, 'cause he also need 2-3 big items. Okay then.
#EveryCarryIsHardCarry
Jokes aside. Slark only needs a few items to be effective. You're seeing a shadowblade Slark already killing people in the mid-game, picking them off. Hard carries, MOSTLY DOESN'T DO THAT, unless accompanied by a support/ganker, or just anyone from the team, or if they're just plain lucky and fat in the mid-game.
Slark CAN transition to a late game viable "hard" carry. But he still isn't a hard carry by the "norm".
I don't know how you differentiate roles...but w/evs. Whatever floats your boat, I won't argue anymore if you still think otherwise.
Yes, yes. Slark CAN 1v2 a lot of carries, even wreck them, but that's only if he plays his cards right. A good Slark wouldn't just dash his way through, he'd atleast consider picking off one Carry, and considering when to pop Shadow Dance(+BKB if he has one). I've played Slark a lot of times, and he really just kills off Hard Carries like Naix, AM, Medusa, and etc, but that's because only I know how to deal with them. Autoattacking a Naix is easy, Medusa being tanky, but draining her stats, and so on. But let's not glorify Slark as the best 1v1 carry, 'cause that's just bullshit in any sense of the word. Void pre-6.84 can practically pubstomp any carry in 1v1 under Chrono. Do you want that as a valid excuse for pubstomping 1v1 ?I think not, right?
Like I said...Slark isn't hard carry by the "norm". He is certainly powerful, but is not originally a hard carry. He's like Jugg, a very flexible Hero.
So seriously, stop glorifying Slark as the "all-magical" 1v1 hero that we needed. Because if he was that OP, he would've gotten nerfed since 6.84...but nope...he didn't even had any updates in 6.85.
Pa could beat slark in a pure click barre but that's not he dota works , on normal skill part I went down to normal skill for awhile playing on no sleep and attempting to play carry again after having pretty much a 7 month break from dota I was actaully at 3800 mmr before the tilt anyways already back to 3500 so should come back soon , if I try. In slark note I have never seen a pa with same farm take out a slark late game . Slark is on trolls level of 1vs1 during late game he can even get a refresher if needed for more . I think how you build him is more early game oreintated that must be why . Not saying your build is not effective but it must be early game oreintated cuz slark shouldn't fall off late game at all . Especially 1vs1 . Nice battle suit mate too bad I got amp damage on your ass
Have you even read what I said? Slark CAN beat PA, but not directly. You're clearly not seeing the big picture here.
And no, you didn't Amp my ass, 'cause what you just said doesn't directly connotate my previous statement.
Also, no..I don't think you came from 3800, considering you only have 4 Very High Skill Brackets. Stop lying plox.
Would've believed you if you made a different account though. Nice try though, being "3800".
Didn't say how long I was at 3800 lol assuming much eh ? Regardless I've spent the majority the past 12 months in high skill which looks like that's where u have been as well . Not saying I am a better player than you just saying slark carries harder than Pa late game . Pretty much majority of people will agree with me as well . Late game encounter slark attacks pa from silver edge . Pa attempts to abyssal slark but it gets purged anyways and slark abbyssal Pa so he has about 7.5secs worth of hits on Pa after stun ult and some time between stunning and ulting give or take . At .4 attacks per second that is 18.75 attacks landed before Pa even would have option to attack . And this is a build without refresher . Pa has no chance 6 slotted vs 6 slotted . The essence shifts are stacking up on you man , what's your next move ?
Sad thing is you have double the games as me and not much higher possibly lower last match I see is from 7 months ago .
Oh boi, here we go again. Let me quote this for you again.
"Have you even read what I said? Slark CAN beat PA, but not directly. You're clearly not seeing the big picture here."(Read above posts for more detail)
I wonder what part of this don't you understand? I'll try to help you seriously.
Also, please stop lying about your MMR. Very High Skill Bracket starts from 3700. You have 5 matches of Very High Skill. You have one Party Ranked Match. Let's assume those 4 other matches are solo. You lost 3 out of 4 of those, and assume you are specifically 3800 no +/-. You'd still be at the VHS Bracket until you lost one more. Which means you should have 6.
BUT MORE ONTO THE FACT. Your Normal Skill Bracket started since 2014, while your High Skill Bracket started 11 months ago. Your VHS is only 3-4 months old. How can you went from High Skill, to Normal Skill, then VHS, all in-between? Your High Skill matches aren't even consistent, mostly it's in-between 2-3 days or so, then months. Your Normal Skill however, is the most consistent of all only spanning in-between 1-2 days, and even the 1 month ago, is a very far apart from your latest Normal Skill Matches. My guess is you're probably hovering in-between the 3k bracket.
What are you gonna lie next? That you don't live in the US, and live in RU, saying "spasiba", and "cyka" all the time?
Like I said, Slark can beat PA. But not directly in a straight fight without using skills, and probably abyss. He needs to attack first, and hopefully if PA gets the chance, not lucky crit.
Owned slark wins ,on a side note I suppose if you are that interested in my mmr journey I can tell you about it . Around one year ago started into high skill games going into and out of high skill for a couple months . Then held high skill for several months but didn't play much since I was in leader ship training for the military and didn't have time to play while I was doing the leadership classes . Continued to not play all that much but learned that playing vengeful was easy wins so spammed vengeful a bit which carried me into very high skill where I decided that very high skill wasn't worth it if I had to be a support every game . By this point it had been many months since I had played much carry but gave it a shot and slowly lost mmr back down to normal skill and I ended up swapping back and forth from high into normal . Now I am rising again up to 3.5 k this time mostly with jugg . I have gotten to 3.5 k many times with slark so I have gotten here before by carrying but if I go higher it will be first time going past 3.5 k playing non support/ tanker heros . I appreciate your interest in me . Thanks for spending the time to check out my profile . Maybe sometime I'll Check out yours . Btw if you doing plus minus for mmr to determine skill you are not accounting for when people go into high skill then lose a game going to normal then sinking in normal to go back into high . Same thing happens with very high skill and high skill .
Here's a memorable match of mine, since it was against a friend who I just coincidentally matched up against.
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1440142483
I don't remember if this is Source 1, so you can't see the replay if it is. But, yes we won. But that's because I didn't directly fight PA straight on, rather than stack up Essence Shift, and back off once my Shadow Dance is down. I bought BKB for the Invoker, and was planning to sell SnY for the Abyssal, cannot transition to Silver Edge for added stats because of gem(to counter techies). Various times, I almost died numerous times from crits, and a lockdowned Blink + Abyssal practically shredded my HP below 35%.
Also you always can't assume the blink + abyssal from PA whenever he's there, so you can't always use Dark Pact to time it. Most decent PA would probably fake Blink to force cast Slark Dark Pact before PA actually blinks.
Like you said Filthy. Slark needs "time" to beat PA, that's why he needs to lock him down, or not make her attack at all for a duration. Because once she does become active, that PRD Crit is gonna pay for itself if she's lucky enough. That's why in most cases, it's always Slark to go for PA, not the other way around.
So please, stop trying to make it look like I'm saying that Slark can't beat PA. 'Cause for the past couple of posts, you've been doing that. When I never even said anything remotely close to that.
Even you said it yourself "Pa could beat slark in a pure click..."
Here was my post where I made it into very high skill .
http://www.dotabuff.com/topics/2016-01-29-holy-crap-boys-the-scrub-has-finally-made-it-to-very-high-skill Post is from 3 months ago .
Also..Ayylmao.
>Btw if you doing plus minus for mmr to determine skill you are "not accounting for when people go into high skill then lose a game going to normal then sinking in normal to go back into high" . Same thing happens with very high skill and high skill .
That's not how the bracket works.
If you've already calibrated, you should be in a consistent bracket. That's why ppl can determine what MMR they are even before they calibrated because of the bracket.
Even if you lose a High Skill game, you'd still be in the High Skill bracket, NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES YOU LOSE. Unless, that last loss was already on the edge of Normal Skill, and/or partying with someone in the lower Brackets, or some coincidental normal matches. Same goes for VHS. Your matches are so inconsistent from normal to hs so many times, it's like you're hovering in-between brackets.
So stop lying, 'cause VHS only accounts for 3700+ MMR, and you only had 5 of those VHS, including 1 party ranked(read my previous post).
But w/ever floats your boat. Already out of topic. If you want to still say you became 3800, then be my guest.
Already OOT anyways.
And sure, you're very welcome to check my profile. Haven't updated it in months, but go ahead.
Not sure what you don't understand ? Very high skill started for me at 3750 . If you are on edge of high skill then lose going to normal skill it gives u a loss for high skill . If you win in normal skill to go to high skill it gives u a win for normal skill . So win / loss ratio will be low for high skill if you have fallen out of high skill several times.
That's what I said, or did you not read what I said?
I'm saying your matches are so inconsistent that it doesn't even remotely put you near 3800.
And again, let's stop here, 'cause srz OOT.
Also. How was I owned? Can you please point out the specifics, 'cause there was no "ownage" that even happened.
You point that I said "Slark can't beat PA".
However, clarifying it, I said "Slark can't beat PA directly, but he can beat PA".
You posted again that I said "Slark can't beat PA".
I reposted again that I said "I said "Slark can't beat PA directly, but he can beat PA"."
Then you keep posting the same posts with your explanation and stuff, and I keep just reposting the same sentence I said.
Then I lastly said "So please, stop trying to make it look like I'm saying that Slark can't beat PA. 'Cause for the past couple of posts, you've been doing that. When I never even said anything remotely close to that."
The only argument I* had against you was that Slark isn't "hard" carry in the "norm", or normal sense, but he is "viable" to be one in the late game, which I already said in the previous posts.
So please, HOW DID YOU OWN ME? Clarify it to me, 'cause I am at a loss. HMM?
You keep saying you "whooped" my ass, but I'm not seeing it.
I think the one who got owned here, is the one who failed to understand any of what was posted.
dude when did u see "directly" in dota last time tho.
slark just beats pa unless she is ahead
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just wondering since i'd go for sb bc of the stats it gives and dag gives no stats at all.