i can't imagine naix's team contesting stacks while standing in the acid spray while alche's team comes to defend them
except the case when there's another afk carry in a team :d
idk, i think this would surely be a problem if naix's team had a deathball lineup (+naix himself) but you could do that with other heroes as well, not just naix
@Arin
If you look at the hard data; LS is one of the heroes with the best win rate vs Alchemist. Despite what some people say hard data doesn't lie and there is generally some truth behind it. Anyways, given the same equipment and not taking into account team makeup, LS usually trump Alchemist in a man fight. Hope that helps.
I don't think TA is good at all vs alch, you guys are discussing lane and ok, that assumes a mid matchup. Not everyone plays alch mid. Mid game/late game acid spray plus alchs insane attack speed will drop TA's shield so fast. He can man fight her easily.
Lifestealer with equal farm, yeah, good alch counter, but he farms so fucking slow. Slardar sounds like a good bet but you still want backup, just have slardar lock him down.
I think good counters are magic burst dmg and disablers since alchemists rarely build bkb and their sustain in fights is usually hp regen off ult, not raw hp. Seems like lina, lion, shadow shaman, those types work best.
arin out of the entire carry pool naix is probably one of the top 5 carries in terms of lane independence and ability to contribute to early mid fights.
lane independence translates to allowing ur supports to pressure either their safe lane or rotate mid whichever lane alch may be.
alch thrives against lineups where you know their supports arent able to put pressure on you (either due to hero incompetence or the need to protect their cores)
Alche is not kinda broken. His splitpush is easily beaten by flashfarmers, esp Antimage shits hard on him. His radiance is kinda unimpressive for AM and outdamaging alche is no problem at all. Splitpush is beaten by gankers and others splitpushers. There is no harm on towers if you stop the wave with your Battlefury/Vlads AM. It just means more farm for you. Since alche is a shitty ganker, you have 1 less thing to worry about as am.
He concentrates so much farm on himself, that he kinda deprives his team. If they do not consist of a lot of aga carriers, the alche is a bad trade for them. Esp the pos 1 will have less farm thx to Bot/Radi/Manta alche.
He is also pretty vulnerable to ganks early on, with his low armor and no escape. He also falls prey to alot of midlaners mentioned here:
Viper
TA
Qop
Huskar
Even a good Sf can smash alches face.
He is some kind of good midlaner in this meta, but no way op.
The only hero, that is really "broken" is Doom for me. Its so hard to kill this fucker during the laning stage. He always gets his farm, thx to his Q. He is a fucking meatshield lategame and his Ult with aga is just like= Ok, fight with 1 hero less. On top you get the freedamage+crit aura.
Thats what you say. Am can Avoid the alche as long as he wants. He can render his splitpush useless, since he kills waves fast and once AM has Manta/Vlads+X he shits on alche.
ehh idk about these split pushing builds but an alch with abyssal should be able to crush am. Pop ult, you can kill him in the abyssal stun + cask follow up window. Unless am has bkb and preemptively uses it to avoid cask.
btw alch's win rate is still only 47% this patch, by comparison doom is 52% and spec is nearly 60. Compared to 6.84c alchs has jumped the most, 7 pts, dooms only jumped 5 and spec's only about 2, but still this is a lot of fucking complaining for a hero who is bottom third on the charts.
With those items you can use Phantom Lancer as Counter except Alche uses Mjolnir to wipe dem illusions on PL or you can counter alchemist by simply nuking him up with your team mates. Many ret*rd alche users are spreading rn especially in SEA which is many alche players suck at playing
i played him some more and honestly i dont see how you can easily beat him
the only games i lost was when the enemy team had 2-3 7ks with 5k party and totally raped us in terms of overall individual skill or against full rosters of competitive teams that were too lazy to find scrims or something
this game they blocked both medium camps from minute 1 and rotated 3 people into my jungle once i was nearing my relic, with kotol blasting the camps i stacked while nightstalker protected him
win rates do matter for normal people. Remember how much 5ks used to bitch about earth spirit being op? Well in 3ks he lost a lot more than he won, I loved playing earth spirits. Same with meepos and now with alchemists. The only time I worry is when we have a shit mid vs a mid alch and I'm not in a position to gank (like on a hard carry with no disables). Honestly I'd rather play vs alch than tb right now.
The whole reason why you get manta after radiance is so you can farm much faster. It jumps your GPM buy quite a lot and a 15 - 17 min radiance manta just dumpsters most any team.
Fought against a full stack of competitive players (top 5 teams in Singapore, you can see their profile stats most of them have above 60% winrate), qop counter pick to fight me mid with smoke ganks by enchantress and full support rotation to camp my jungle.
My only comment is that QoP absolutely sucks against alch once he gets his farm. The core I struggled against the most so far was slark since he has an easier time hunting and ignores whatever you have with his ulti on.
we talk like alche is the only one problem in the team. meanwhile the safelane carries have farm while we focusing on alche split pushing. it's like we doomed to dead anyway. stop alche, we can't stop the safe lane carries, stop safe lane carries, we can't stop alche
especially with Alchemist + Anti-Mage Team Matchup. you need 2-3 people to stop those alchemist at top, meanwhile space created at bot which is Anti-mage is split pushing bot too.
You need to knock alchy back like any carry. You need to delay his radiance as long as you can. Basically the idea is your carry needs to be stronger than him later on, so you need to knock him back more than your carry gets knocked back.
i can't imagine naix's team contesting stacks while standing in the acid spray while alche's team comes to defend them
except the case when there's another afk carry in a team :d
idk, i think this would surely be a problem if naix's team had a deathball lineup (+naix himself) but you could do that with other heroes as well, not just naix
i'm low 4k though so i'm probably wrong anyway
i wish i could imagine these kinds of scenarios while playing and not do stupid shit half of the time like i do now :d
@Arin
If you look at the hard data; LS is one of the heroes with the best win rate vs Alchemist. Despite what some people say hard data doesn't lie and there is generally some truth behind it. Anyways, given the same equipment and not taking into account team makeup, LS usually trump Alchemist in a man fight. Hope that helps.
Regards
Gecko
I don't think TA is good at all vs alch, you guys are discussing lane and ok, that assumes a mid matchup. Not everyone plays alch mid. Mid game/late game acid spray plus alchs insane attack speed will drop TA's shield so fast. He can man fight her easily.
Lifestealer with equal farm, yeah, good alch counter, but he farms so fucking slow. Slardar sounds like a good bet but you still want backup, just have slardar lock him down.
I think good counters are magic burst dmg and disablers since alchemists rarely build bkb and their sustain in fights is usually hp regen off ult, not raw hp. Seems like lina, lion, shadow shaman, those types work best.
i think lifestealer is not bad if you have a initiator (e.g. bh, qop w/e) to jump onto and keep pressuring him early
you can fuck him quite hard before his manta
arin out of the entire carry pool naix is probably one of the top 5 carries in terms of lane independence and ability to contribute to early mid fights.
lane independence translates to allowing ur supports to pressure either their safe lane or rotate mid whichever lane alch may be.
alch thrives against lineups where you know their supports arent able to put pressure on you (either due to hero incompetence or the need to protect their cores)
Alche is not kinda broken. His splitpush is easily beaten by flashfarmers, esp Antimage shits hard on him. His radiance is kinda unimpressive for AM and outdamaging alche is no problem at all. Splitpush is beaten by gankers and others splitpushers. There is no harm on towers if you stop the wave with your Battlefury/Vlads AM. It just means more farm for you. Since alche is a shitty ganker, you have 1 less thing to worry about as am.
He concentrates so much farm on himself, that he kinda deprives his team. If they do not consist of a lot of aga carriers, the alche is a bad trade for them. Esp the pos 1 will have less farm thx to Bot/Radi/Manta alche.
He is also pretty vulnerable to ganks early on, with his low armor and no escape. He also falls prey to alot of midlaners mentioned here:
Viper
TA
Qop
Huskar
Even a good Sf can smash alches face.
He is some kind of good midlaner in this meta, but no way op.
The only hero, that is really "broken" is Doom for me. Its so hard to kill this fucker during the laning stage. He always gets his farm, thx to his Q. He is a fucking meatshield lategame and his Ult with aga is just like= Ok, fight with 1 hero less. On top you get the freedamage+crit aura.
lmao AM will never outcarry alch
Thats what you say. Am can Avoid the alche as long as he wants. He can render his splitpush useless, since he kills waves fast and once AM has Manta/Vlads+X he shits on alche.
Alche himself can do jackshit to gank AM.
?
alch is the one forcing AM to react to him not the other way around
am will never beat alch in a one on one fight also
blademail octarine is basically a 25% damage reduction while BKBs are down + insane regen and AM is the one going to be kited all day
Ofc zenotha AM cant 1v1 alchemist thats why he spawns 2 more AMs
ehh idk about these split pushing builds but an alch with abyssal should be able to crush am. Pop ult, you can kill him in the abyssal stun + cask follow up window. Unless am has bkb and preemptively uses it to avoid cask.
btw alch's win rate is still only 47% this patch, by comparison doom is 52% and spec is nearly 60. Compared to 6.84c alchs has jumped the most, 7 pts, dooms only jumped 5 and spec's only about 2, but still this is a lot of fucking complaining for a hero who is bottom third on the charts.
With those items you can use Phantom Lancer as Counter except Alche uses Mjolnir to wipe dem illusions on PL or you can counter alchemist by simply nuking him up with your team mates. Many ret*rd alche users are spreading rn especially in SEA which is many alche players suck at playing
dotabuff hero winrates dont mean jackshit fyi
i played him some more and honestly i dont see how you can easily beat him
the only games i lost was when the enemy team had 2-3 7ks with 5k party and totally raped us in terms of overall individual skill or against full rosters of competitive teams that were too lazy to find scrims or something
cant you just contest his stacks his pattern is pretty static
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1870779845
this game they blocked both medium camps from minute 1 and rotated 3 people into my jungle once i was nearing my relic, with kotol blasting the camps i stacked while nightstalker protected him
they succeeded in delaying my radiance to 10:14
@tomia
good point, thank you
The only reason this thread is still going is because no one wants to pick supports.
Just pick AA and be done with it.
win rates do matter for normal people. Remember how much 5ks used to bitch about earth spirit being op? Well in 3ks he lost a lot more than he won, I loved playing earth spirits. Same with meepos and now with alchemists. The only time I worry is when we have a shit mid vs a mid alch and I'm not in a position to gank (like on a hard carry with no disables). Honestly I'd rather play vs alch than tb right now.
how do you lane as TA vs alch
hey give me the odds for an ember vs alch lane
you go 3 chains and 2 guard right?
starting items? pms or no
Do i really need to pick this alchemist to able to flow in this meta...... Patch 6.85=Alchemist
get magic damage hero. Dont get too close with that hero. Pick QOP as mid and Lina as supp, DOOOMMSS
The whole reason why you get manta after radiance is so you can farm much faster. It jumps your GPM buy quite a lot and a 15 - 17 min radiance manta just dumpsters most any team.
@kitrak
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1873648746
Fought against a full stack of competitive players (top 5 teams in Singapore, you can see their profile stats most of them have above 60% winrate), qop counter pick to fight me mid with smoke ganks by enchantress and full support rotation to camp my jungle.
My only comment is that QoP absolutely sucks against alch once he gets his farm. The core I struggled against the most so far was slark since he has an easier time hunting and ignores whatever you have with his ulti on.
@Zenoth - well, their support is 3.8k solo, but ya still good job xD
well my point was to contest what Kitrak said about QoP being a great counter to alchemist
we talk like alche is the only one problem in the team. meanwhile the safelane carries have farm while we focusing on alche split pushing. it's like we doomed to dead anyway. stop alche, we can't stop the safe lane carries, stop safe lane carries, we can't stop alche
especially with Alchemist + Anti-Mage Team Matchup. you need 2-3 people to stop those alchemist at top, meanwhile space created at bot which is Anti-mage is split pushing bot too.
Burst is good against him - I had a game against Zeus, Nyx and Invoker and got completely rekt.
please someone explain why all these alch threads keeping running and AA doesn't just end them.
as an aside, get someone to pick oracle if you do have an alch. the double regen is pretty broken.
aa isnt that good against alch if he goes the radiance manta oct build
I don't find any issue with opponent alche, just my team alche :(
alche is so cancer im picking it so i dont have to deal with it
i wouldnt mind so much if i could play meepo sigh
We used dark seer riki combo against him and killed him so often that he cant have a good farm.
"dark seer riki combo"
Yeah, works in normal skill. I've done it too, but it's like really stupid.
You need to knock alchy back like any carry. You need to delay his radiance as long as you can. Basically the idea is your carry needs to be stronger than him later on, so you need to knock him back more than your carry gets knocked back.
Razer mid dumpsters him, had 40+ denies in the laning phase.. however if you cant steal his stacks it is irrelivant of how many denies you get on him.