Yes, Vlads is very good for sustainng jungle, ancients, and you can solo roshan. One problem. Never go heart. Really
Heart is such a shit item on non-str heroes. Its good only if they got some heavy magic nukers but then you got bkb wtf
Pro players, and many players including myself go the following build: treads, battlefury, vlads, manta, abbysal (basher after manta always), butterfly/bkb> sell vlads, get butterfly bkb. But anyway, when you have treads, bfury, vlads, manta, abbysal, bkb you should finish the game.
So yeah, vlads almost always, maybe if you are really behind, but even then, you should splitpush, so ill get vlads for pushing faster.
and, another thing many dont see, 15% damage in lategame is pretty good too
I donno, abyssal before heart and my AM at even lvl20 will have around 1.5k hp, and in normal skill I can't expect good backup, so a little tank might help, but then again, a quicker abyssal can help me hit harder and fight earlier.
Also, why is the early ring of protection recommended to start off? I don't see AM getting basi or aquila too many times :/
Well BH already got MKB, and I needed to survive if I get ganked&doomed, or at least to stay alive long enough for my team to come help me. Maybe never was a wrong term here, but ill get butterfly+bkb 80% of the time.
And I didnt say that pro players follow my build. I first saw it when I was watching Arteezy replays. Then I saw multiple pro players using
the build. I dont mean that arteezy created it, but I first saw it on him.
So I said that I follow what people usually build, and in most pro games, pro players streams they usually go vlads, and I rarely seen a heart on AM
RoP is for basi for future vlads. Though I dont get it first, maybe sometimes is good.
Well, with bkb + abyssal you sit around 2k hp. And if you get butterfly thats a pretty good EHP until they get mkbs. and anyway, unless they have heavy lockdowns/ silences you can escape easily via blink.Maybe it would be necessary to use manta and bkb but syill you can escape. Well anyway, for me, treads, manta, bfury, vlads, abyssal is core, after depends on the game.
But on topic, yes imo, ill get vlads after bfury 90% of games
Another question, I know one value point on E is really good since it boosts his EHP significantly.
But against a non heavy magic dmg team, is it worth getting a 2nd point in Q for dmg, or is the E always a good choice early game?
Cuz I see arteezy go a full Q-W build, not getting any E, but he is a professional player so i dont know :/
well if they dont got magic damage, i guess whats the point in getting E right?
Though, ill anyway get at least 1 point in E later on
Oh and about heart,to be clear, its not like dont get it at all, cuz if they start get mkbs/they got a lot of pure damage(QoP, Lina, timber etc) a heart is a better choice over butterfly indeed, but if you are ahead, and you should be if you got a good start, i think butterfly is better but of course, it depends on the game
The best antimage on this planet goes heart quite often. It has alot of benefits; you can blink out of a fight wait a few seconds and gain a shitton of hp back. It also helps in pushing, cause you can tank the tower without losing any hp, makes pushing safer etc. You can also deal with beeing hexed, cause hex reduces your magicimmunity and your evasion to 0. Heart allows you to stay out of your base complety, thx to the regen. You dont have to gain hp back while beeing low with hitting creeps. This helps alot in ratting.
So its quite a matter of taste and the enemy lineup. I generally like heart before butter/bash, cause it makes you quite beefy. If enemy has only physical damage ofc you go butterfly.
@Topic
Yes, vlads is for me a must have. It solves all your manaissues (early on, esp after using ult you can have some manatrouble(yes i switch treads)), you can clear stacks. With manta you can solorosh (it has gotten harder this patch). You can go 1v1 better, it helps in pushing (bonus armor; lifesteal), it helps your team.
Also the parts of vlads can help in the laning stage, if needed (the ring of regen gives you some nice additional hp regen (if you face windrunner), the basi gives you some more damage and cheap armor).
It keeps you high hp, lets you ancient and rosh so yes it is quite solid
As with any item in dota; it's situational. You need to learn when each item is beneficial.
Yes, heart is a tanky item. It's pretty good on str heroes, but on carries you need to be VERY careful about if you choose to buy it.
Bfury is a farming aid, and should be gotten very early.
Vlads is more a farming aid; than a survivability item. The minor leech you get from your Q isn't much to regen you in bursts (which this metagame is all about burst damage.)
Blacks msot common items on him include Bfly over heart, but I can see when a heart would be preferred over a bfly
heart is fucking amazing on am
u buy vlads if noone else does for early game and then sell when u get ur 5th/6th item depending if ur taking aegises/cheeses
u shouldnt go 1-1-1 till battlefury u should actually have 4 ranks of blink the moment u get battlefury for maximum mobility/farm. And mostly the build should be treads-->BF-->Vlads-->manta-->butterfly/bkb-->abysal/heart/bkb. abysal after manta is good to a certain extent but if u follow up butterfly after the manta u increase the AMs dmg over the roof coz of his steroid abilitys and BAT. U see Abysal aint bad at all and helps alot with that 100dmg that ILLUSIONS DO NOT get but more often than not u will die to rightclicks coz of no evasion, and the increased attack speed makes u farm alot faster and sustain alot more aswell.
imo the dilema with AM starts after manta, its the fight between abysal and butterfly...most of the times its about sustainsed dmg and burst dmg...if ur oponents r kind of tanky a butterfly is better coz it has more sustained dmg and survivability, but if ur oponents r squishy and elusive i agree that abysal helps alot, if u want an example if theres a sven/CK or something like that u might fail to kill them with abysal coz of their natural high HP and they will mostly kill u the moment they turn on u coz of the high autoattack dmg that ck has, while with evasion from butterfly and the attack speed u will survive the encounter and be able to bring them down while leechin hp back with ocasional missed attacks.
@Kappa is my waifu I know i have probably bothered u a couple of times, but for the love of god stop makin assuptions without havin back up for that or givin some real theorycraftin, not that im tryin to insult but u r on normal/highskill and srsly u shouldnt follow up with "Pro players, and many players including myself " coz some ppl who need help might rly take it for granted and ur build is actually bad. If u saw that on RTZ well that guy is like 7-8k he can go dagon 5 and that will look amazing aswell.
"basher after manta always" new rule????!!
"15% damage in lategame is pretty good too" that 15% is base attack dmg bonus which comes ONLY from stats that ur abyssal wont give, which is another point why stats from butterfly/manta with vlads bonus line up so well.
"And if you get butterfly thats a pretty good EHP until they get mkbs" they will get those MKBs before u finish that butterfly if u go for abyssal first, dont forget its the 4th item we r talkin about which is kind of late in the game, which most of the times is after 30mins where usually the fate of the game is mostly decided.
Peace.
When I meant getting blink after bfury, I meant I start leveling it up once I get the broadsword, by the time I get claymore shipped I'll be around lvl 10 by which I get my bfury and blink maxed
AM doesnt even need items in 3k. OD with aghs and then mana void those fuckers for rampage.
@DaV i acknowledge that abyssal after manta its not always necessary, and butterfly enchances your illusions, but if you dont got a solid lockdown your illusions will most likely hit nothing. Any Anti-mage pick-off its usually blink+abyssal+manta. But yes, you are right, its not a rule.
15% damage in LATE GAME, and as AM farm, you will have butterfly by then so i dont think thats a bad point. Ofc you sell it for heart/bkb/moon shard, or whatever you need.
Well, they might finish mkb before i finish butterfly if i go abyssal first, but if i see them building it/have bought it, i just go heart+ AC for example, or bkb. And anyway, after i finish abyssal, if i didnt do it yet, ill solo roshan, get aegis, and start pressuring rax. i dont let them farm the mkb before my butterfly. i dont finish abyssal and keep farm jungle for another 10 min. And as you said at 30 minutes game is decided, treads+bfury+vlads+manta+abyssal and probably aegis and you can finish the game.
I'm not theory crafting anything because i acknowledge my skill level, i am a 3k trash, i just reply to the thread based on what i usually see, and not in my pub games, but in streams/games/replays of pro players. Replays especially, i watch lot of replays from people like rtz, s4, miracle etc.
ya... I find heart quite useful on am my current build is pms treads bfury vlads, manta , basher, then I either go heart first or abyssal first depending on game. If game isn't ended yet which it should ill sell vlads for butterfly. then grab a moon shard and bot.
"srsly u shouldnt follow up with "Pro players, and many players including myself " coz some ppl who need help might rly take it for granted and ur build is actually bad."
You are right, i wont follow builds that pro players/high mmr players use becuase they ofcourse can build dagon 5 and work.
I will start watching 4ks from now:
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/976613116
@Kappa
"It's stupid to say stop taking advices from pro players because they can rekt 4-5k pubs with dagon 5" i never said that and im rly careful when i speak to ppl coz i always quote, pls give me the quote where i said that its stupid to see pro players streams?
U see when u try to make an argument to prove a point or smth its always better to leave insults such as "stupid" out of the senteces just to point out that u r actually responding in cold blood and rational thoughts instead of heat of the moment, that makes the argument stronger in comparision to flamebaitin.
To the main point i never said dont watch pro streamers, pls go on watch them, but dont take their itembuilds for granted, watch their moves their farm/map awarness try to learn from their personal skills and mechanics but dont pay attention to their builds. Item building has nothing to do with skill lvl, whether some1 is 1k or 7k the items r the same they dont change, what changes is how fast they farm them and under what circumstances. I cant count the number of times that i saw dendi go for 5 battlefuryis on ursa, or go for armlet/AC/Abyssal on pudge and guess what? there was always some1 who was tryin to copy his bad example ofc unless u think that it aint a bad example. And btw that dagon 5 thing about the high rated dudes is right https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1608232532 the Bloodseeker is 6.6k and he was shittin on us naked with a dagon most of the game, does that make it a strong build to try to compete against ppl on the same skill lvl as his? i belive that goes without sayin doesnt it?
And yes that was a troll game and we were a party, but me sayin dont pay attention to high rated ppl itembuilds doesnt necessary mean u have to look on 4k guyz itembuilds, i know that i might have been botherin u here and there but trust me its nothing personal its not like i know u or anything, just part of the opinion exchangin.
I don't get the hate on heart with AM?
I mean of course it's so bad when you splitpush the shit out of the ennemy team, they gank you, get you low but you manage to escape just for you to come back 30 seconds later full hp with a free lane to destroy since they forgot you had +100 hp regen per second...
"and srsly u shouldnt follow up with "Pro players, and many players including myself " coz some ppl who need help might rly take it for granted and ur build is actually bad."
This is what you wrote.
Ok, i misread it at first, ok, maybe i should not look at the item builds, but i watch their replays on youtube via Dota 2 Pro channel/ their channels like Arteezy, Loda etc. And most of the replays are not from streams so the games are usually when they play tryhard.
And the dagon bloodseeker is actually a thing in Russia i heard of. I cant really see the effectiveness but i guess it works
HoT is just a bad item that only compensates your errors. If you dont do serious errors, HoT is always suboptimal.
or you can just lifesteal off creeps and not take damage in the first place by blinking out.
also getting the claymore first means that you can finish the battle fury in the side shop plus if you have the claymore first there's no situations where your courier can get sniped with BF components since you'll be getting them from the side shop. if your courier gets sniped bringing your claymore then your BF timing is fucked and even if it isn't, the courier still takes time transporting your item that slows down your BF timing compared to finishing it in the side shop once you have enough gold.
pt bf vlads manta abbysal butterfly bkb is a very normal build and nobody here "invented" it LOL
You usually only go HoT if enemy team has 1. Lina 2. A lot of damage burst 3. You will be unkillable with HoT
I cant see where i said stupid?
Its all about preference anyway, abyssal first, butterfly first, as long as you do well it doesnt matter most of the time
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1649521433
For example, i think this is a game for abyssal first. i was behind, finished my battlefury so fuckn late like 18 min, manta immediately after to purge off orchid, vlads after was probably a waste but i was feeling like, bkb after, and then our team have almost no lockdown, and especially we are vs a storm.
Well, tbh, i dont think i actually caught storm once, cuz he was entering fights very late, i was always waiting for him but he never came probably he was waiting me as well, but i used it on necro and i think it paid off, as we almost lost game because some disabled buybacks. So i would just blink, abbysal, manta and burst him down in that 2-3 seconds time window
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1576598563
this one was a butterfly first game, as they got more physical damage, and altough they got storm as well, he was doing poorly anyway, and got caught by venge multiple times
So yes, saying abyssal after manta always was a bit exagerating
I think a 6 slotted am with heart is better than a 6 slotted am with vlads , shouldn't vlads be sold once you are six slotted? Or you can get a bkb.
@kappa well apparently u have edited ur comment i copy/pasted the quote on my previous comment thats what u were sayin...u deleted it later apparently, but its ok doesnt rly matter.
PS: that seeker with dagon is a rly bad build i just showed u that high rated players can build whatever they want and they can still win easly on 4-5k dudes, all this was in refrence to ur RTZ am build which i said u shouldnt take it for granted, as no1 should take for granted that bloodseekers build.
It's either one or the other not both for me, delays team fight items such as manta or bkb, this meta is all about early-mid game fighting.
Wouldn't vlads help with an early fight strategy, maybe not as much as a manta but still?
level 20 AM with battlefury, treads on agi, manta and vlads with maxed abilities and 5 stats has
Physical EHP: 3182.31
Magical EHP: 3744
Add AC:
Physical EHP: 4445.91
Magical EHP: 3744
Add butter:
Physical EHP: 5440.18
Magical EHP: 3744
Add heart:
Physical EHP: 5584.9
Magical EHP: 6570.67
Nothing wrong with heart at all if you need to survive. He already has pretty high armor with those items and being an agi hero so heart gives a lot of EHP. Plus butter they can build mkbs. And heart's benefit is also raw hp so assholes like lina with pure dmg don't just wreck you cus base hp is like 1400 vs 2400 with heart. If teams are using disables to kill you like sheep sticks and hex then bkb is the way to go but if they get abyssal blades or have that high burst then heart is fine.
on normal skill its good to get naked boots and dagon 5
u will get 30 kills ezy
well i didnt say its bad, i said 2 times i would get it if they have high burst or pure damage as lina, QoP and others
I never understood vlads, treadswitch with bfury is more than enough mana and you only need to go back after 2 mana voids
because it accelerates your farm, your split push is stronger with a vlads than if you only have a yasha, if you get ganked but survive you don't have to go back to base, you can now farm ancients, and it also allows you to sneak roshan, although it's much slower with the qb nerf so you can't solo rosh with just bfury and vlads anymore.
and im pretty sure tread switching alone isnt enough for constant blink.
I "only" get it when im kinda fucked and ganked nonstop to keep my hp safe and to spam blink a bit more!
plus your goal is to get 6 slotted super fast, not just to get manta asap. besides vlads, bflys the only other common item that increases farm but is way more expensive. a vlads into bfly would probably still be quicker anyway. heart and basher don't help you farm that much faster.
I'm not a fan of Vlads Antimage at all, but i am a fan of getting perseverance as my first Battle Fury component though, gotta love that HP/Mana regen. :D It's not like i'm any good with AM anyways. I'd rather just go BF into manta.
perseverance does not give you any extra hp regen over ring of health. you are basically paying 875g for 10 damage which is less cost efficient for damage than a broadsword or claymore, which both have the same damage-cost ratio, but claymore is more slot effiicent - providing more damage in a single item slot.
Vlad's is a nice item to have after bfury... But tbh its like 2k gold so I'd rather spend that gold on yasha or save up till I have a reaver for heart because once you have heart you won't need Vlad's anymore... And Vlad's ends up being a waste of an item slot later
vlads is useful at all stages of the game, even if you have a heart too
it makes ur creeps live way longer pushing, 5 armor and lifesteal that actually does things because am hits really hard in fights
and it gives 13-17 damage
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I play AM occasionally, but I've wanted to get better on him lately.
I generally go a 1-1-1 build until i get Bfury, and my general item progression is treads > Bfury > manta > heart
Would a vlads after the bfury help me fight earlier? Or is the quicker manta better for me lategame?