It doesn't appear that you want to understand. But I'll reiterate anyway.
This was not a post about me having trouble with bloodseeker and ppl beating me by tping away. If you notice, that did not happen. I won the game. I crushed them despite 33 tp scrolls used against me.
This was a thread started to show that 3k players DO in fact use tp scrolls, but they use them ineffectively. Hopefully now you get the point.
I really don't see any reasonable way for you to imagine that I am arrogant. I claim nowhere, in years, not once that I am a great, amazing dota player. I don't want to people to think that. I go to great lengths to show evidence that I am not. But you blindly read your own feelings into my writing. You are projecting your own arrogance and pride with no basis at all in reality.
It is the fact that you refuse you recognize your natural advantages and attribute all of your success in the game to your own deserving it... that is why you are mad. That is why you say everyone could do it, because you want to believe you are a great amazing dota player and deserve something for it. And you do deserve something, a high MMR score. But you do not deserve immunity from treating others with respect or immunity from criticism.
No, I have never claimed to have the mind of a 5k player. That's absurd. Especially since there is NO SUCH THING, as a 5k player intellect. 5k players are not smarter than anyone lower or higher MMR. MMR has almost nothing to do with understanding the game and even less to do with basic intelligence.
I don't make any excuses for my MMR, currently at 3133 solo and 3353 party. I don't try to hide it. I don't care that it is lower than whatever number you might prefer. It is truly quite unimportant to any arguments I make.
I see that you choose to continue to bang your head against the wall that I represent and the emotional trauma from this action has caused you to imagine that I am doing this in a game I won easily... but somehow you being completely frustrated has you imagining that I was frustrated with the game.
Another cogent question Frozen. The verdict is that knowledge of the use of tp scrolls does not depend on MMR. Rather it is particular to individual players at lots of MMR levels.
In general higher MMR players use more tp scrolls. But this is not because of something they know. Rather it is because using a tp scroll works better for them since they have to ability to perceive when to use it precisely enough to get it right.
No Kitrak I have never said that I believe I should be 5k MMR and that reaction speed is holding me back. I haven't said it because I don't believe it. In fact I've said the opposite many times.
It is sometimes astonishing that people don't recognize that some players are vastly more talented in dota, just like in basketball and in fact in everything in life. But apparently some people really don't see it.
Everyone has different levels of ability in every area. As you develop your potential you will rise in MMR. But whatever you do eventually you will reach a limit you cannot cross based on your ability to quickly and accurately perceive the game and act on that information. This should not even be controversial.
I have played with and against pro players, maybe a few hundred games, mostly in dota 1. I am not anywhere near as good as they are, but I have played with them and against them to directly experience what it is like. I like to get the idea of how pro players think from watching their replays to see what they look at and what they click exactly. I find I have to slow it down to 0.25 speed to see all of it well. Also talking to them really helps to understand so I add them to friends when I can and ask their opinions on various things to gain different perspectives.
"all the evidence in the world shows that if you practice dota you get better at it and can eventually play against top players"
This is ridiculous. It's obviously false... really its hard to believe you actually believe it and are not just continuing to hold that position because you fell trapped.
Perhaps what you really are trying to express is that Kitrak, personally was able to practice enough and get better and eventually play against top players. But 10 million ordinary people were not able, and you keep forgetting that. You want to believe they just don't bother to try hard enough. Effort, dedication is important, but it is not sufficient. Just as all the effort in the world will not make an ordinary man into a pro basketball player.
This argument we are having is another excellent illustration of the point. And this wisdom has been known since ancient times. It is common to the human experience.
Ecclesiastes 6:10 "Whatever has come to be has already been named, and it is known what man is, and that he is not able to dispute with one stronger than he."
I'd say you're both right and wrong, I don't think like 5k/6k/7k players are some kind of gifted sons of jesus blessed with natural talent and skill. I'd argue that any player that fullfills the following requirements can become just as good:
1. Has a basic level of hand-eye coordination to the level where you do not misclick frequently
2. Has a basic level of mouse control which allows you to move your mouse efficiently
3. Is patient enough to study own replays and better players replays
4. Has a good attitude and focuses on learning something from games as opposed to just press find match like a monkey
I'd say about 40-50% of the dota 2 players has the capability to do this, some people are just too inpatient, and most are too stupid to realize they're bad and that's what holding most people back.
i don't think either of u is 100% correct, it's more like "yes most people still have lots of potential, but each person's latent skill curve is different."
by this i mean
1) most people aren't playing to their full potential (i.e. a 3k guy who applies himself correctly might be 4k in a few months)
2) some people take much longer to learn a skill than others, most will give up before they reach close to their maximum potential
3) people's skill caps vary greatly (this is where i have to agree with relentless, i have LOTS of friends who have been playing longer than i have and are still fucking awful at dota, there's no helping them. they're right where they belong)
you can argue relentless is wrong on #1, because he erroneously attributes some people plateauing to "not having talent," but #3 seems fairly straightforward. not everyone can become a basketball star even if they played 5 hours/day, 5 days/week (just to use the example you provided).
take for instance human longevity, demographers attribute about 35% of variability to genetics, and 65% to social factors. you're literally arguing "yes people can live longer if they just eat well, exercise, etc." which is true, but that doesn't eliminate the fact 2 people living under similar conditions will die at different ages, which is beyond their control
if u asked me to defend this position, i would give examples of skills that separate "above average" from the great players, like
1) putting your cursor pre-emptively to where you predict an enemy will appear so u can disable them the moment they blink out of fog (most people above 5k don't seem to do this often, if at all)
2) last hitting perfectly under tower
3) checking the minimap in the blink of an eye to see where a fight is breaking out (usually it takes me 1-1.5 seconds to react and click the section of the map, for the best players in the world they do it in like 0.2 seconds)
there are other examples, but these are things i don't think i would get down even if i practiced over and over again. when i watch 7k players play dota, and their team sucks shit, they do some amazing things to turn the game around that i know i would fail to pull off.
and that's fine with me, i don't need to be that skilled to enjoy the game
Of course natural ability means that ultimately some players can be better than others. It's crazy to think otherwise.
However, dota knowledge is so underdeveloped (look how long it took bloodseeker to appear in this patch for example) that that differ nice is almost entirely theoretical. With dedication and the right coaching almost everyone could improve themselves to being an excellent player.
I tend to avoid your threads but I had to reply to this "MMR has almost nothing to do with understanding the game". If you were be a support player you would understand that this is completely false.
^ +1 being able to properly support has everything to do with understanding of the game. If you have no understanding of the game, your supporting will be awful and you will never get MMR if you're a support player cause you're fundamentals are weak.
Understanding the game is important for players in all positions. It could be argued that understanding the carry role is simpler than understanding the support role. But both need to be understood by both carry and support players to effectively coordinate their efforts.
I see the same kinds of understanding based mistakes made at 5k that I do at 3k MMR... at 2k MMR there are a lot of truly newer players who have played maybe less than 100 games and make a lot more mistakes based on a lack of understanding or knowledge of the game. But this is not the reason nearly all of them will stay close to 2k MMR. The root cause is not "they don't care" or "they don't try" etc. You have to understand why a casual gamer considers rising in MMR less important. Average players do not try as hard to learn or to win - this is true. But the reason is that people tryhard at things where they see results, where they get a benefit for their work.
If you are not paid for your work you will not work very hard. When a person takes up any pursuit or hobby, such as golf and finds that they are not very talented they are quite unlikely to put much time and effort into it because what effort is expended does not yield noticeable returns.
When a low skilled player sees that they win 49% of their games tryharding (remaining at 2.3k MMR) and still win 49% of the games just playing for fun, but dropping to 1.9k MMR they choose to remain at lower MMR and enjoy the game. Maybe they could eventually with much pain and frustration claw their way to 2.6k MMR... but why do it?
The people who advance to higher MMRs easily end up spending more time learning and growing because they have room to grow. The reality of their potential to be better inspires them to try to achieve it. Those who can't are not stupid. They are simply able to see in their early attempts to learn the game that its too hard for them and so they lose interest in tryharding. There is nothing wrong with this.
Anyone who sets their sights on being a pro dota player and really commits to try to achieve it is almost certain to be someone who has some chance of doing it. If they had no special talent, they would not be inclined to even think about attempting the project because whatever effort they did expend would return minimal results. Occasionally there might be someone delusional who thinks they are good while failing to climb out of the average range. But that's contrary to normal human psychology. People put effort into things that work. They don't normally return over and over to failure.
"With dedication and the right coaching almost everyone could improve themselves to being an excellent player."
This is not really true, IF by "excellent" you mean top 1% or some other objective standard of excellence. If you just mean, "everyone can improve"... sure everyone can improve. But everyone cannot be in the top 10%, or the top 1% etc. It's impossible by definition.
MMR is not an absolute measure. It is a relative measure. For you to gain MMR, someone must lose it. If you raise your game from being a top 20% player to being a top 10% player it only happens by knocking down everyone else who was previously above you. This is why over time, over millions of games, the higher MMRs all go to the people who are faster independent of all other factors.
Kitrak says "last hitting perfectly under tower is practicable u sorta have to know hero damages and stuff"
These are necessary, but not sufficient conditions. To lasthit perfectly under tower you do need to practice, and you do need to know how hero damage, creep damage and tower damage relate. It is helpful to try to follow an explicit pattern early in the game, but that pattern changes with specific circumstances and when and how many times to attack a creep needs to be subjectively felt rather than calculated because you only have a few seconds to decide if not tenths of a second to decide.
This knowledge and practice is not enough to make perfect lasthitting under tower possible. Just last night I missed a ton of lasthits under tower as Spectre with a q-blade because the network conditions were bad and it started spiking. Normally I can lasthit all or nearly all of the creeps in this situation, but because of technological problems I failed. My early farm was much slower than usual, but since my MMR is quite low right now everyone sucked at farming and I was still able to win.
https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1525177920 in fact at 22-3-17, as the game went on it became obvious that I don't belong in this game with that level of Spectre play.
I only got 40 lasthits by 10 minutes, which means I missed half of them in a very easy lane.
Some people however can't ever do it and can't learn to do it either. The reason they can't do it is lack of the ability to perceive fractions of a second precisely and lack of the ability to control their finger precisely. Because they can't see or feel the difference between the times when they get the lasthit and the times when they do not they remain forever unable to learn the pattern. Practicing doing it wrong never leads to getting it right no matter how much you practice.
Here's the thing I have seen. All this focus on theory, statistics etc. I feel makes you a worse player that those who just play the game and do what works for them. People in lower brackets tick all the boxes yes, but they're still horribly bad players.
Game knowledge ≠ understanding of what it takes to win a game.
Kitrak, at what point are you going to start really trying hard to improve your writing skills? At what point are you going to learn the difference between insults and arguments and become better at reasoning and analysis? At what point will you begin to work hard remaining consistent in your statements from day to day and post to post? At what point will you put serious effort into empathetically understanding opposing points of view?
You don't really try very hard to get any of these things right because you know from what limited experience you have that you will fail in these areas to discern the difference between success and failure. You know you are doing them wrong sometimes, but only vaguely. You can't really tell whether what you read or write makes sense or not. This is why you continue to speak nonsense, though you are vaguely aware that it is embarrassing for you to do it.
It is hypocritical of you to condemn the average dota player for not becoming excellent on the basis that its simply a choice everyone can make meanwhile you continue to display a paucity of lucidity in each statement you make and show no concern for improving or respect for your superiors to learn from them.
Havoc is correct. "Analysis is Paralysis" as the popular saying goes. It is contrary to what is needed to become an excellent dota player to spend lots of time and thought on understanding the game. The same is true in all sports. Talented athletes simply enjoy doing, and do what they like a lot naturally improving without thinking.
The best players typically just get a feel for the game, they don't think that much about it. Sometimes this causes them to develop habits that are appropriate in one situation but not in others. That is why there is such a difference between pro players and pubstars. The pubstar, to become a pro must relearn how to play. The habits developed in solo que don't translate well to organized contests.
This is not to say that athletic talent has no brains... its that if you want analysis of what habits to practice, the athlete who will be best at performing is the wrong person to consult on what should be practiced. And to achieve their personal best, the athlete should not think about it, but just do it. Let someone else do the thinking. This is just how people work, human nature as it were.
"It is contrary to what is needed to become an excellent dota player to spend lots of time and thought on understanding the game. The same is true in all sports. Talented athletes simply enjoy doing, and do what they like a lot naturally improving without thinking." You are wrong here again. If you don't think about what you could have done differently and how to improve (basically game understanding) then you will improve very slowly. Game understanding comes naturally with experience but JUST spamming games is hardly the best way to improve. As an example, you have played more Dota 2 games than I have but I would argue that I know a lot more about this game than you do.
Jussi you chopped my statements in half and then you want to complain that the half you ignored wasn't there.
But I'll put it back together for you anyway. Spamming games is how talented players naturally improve their skills simply by doing. But this is not the right sort of practice for pro play. For that you need to practice coordination, and specific things. For that you need a plan, and the plan should come from someone excellent at planning - this is unlikely to be the same person who is excellent at executing the plan.
The athlete will better use a weapon than the average man, with practice they can outskill the enemy in single combat. But in a war you need to follow the orders of the general. Your skill alone will not be sufficient to win. Mindless practice IS more effective than thinking to improve skills. The thinking should be done beforehand to choose WHAT to mindlessly practice. I am not saying, leave your brain at the loading screen. I am saying get your of your head, and feel the flow of the game. Most people can't do it. But if you can, this is the path to your best performance.
The only thing that ticks me off is that relentless thinks he understand the game as well as a 5k. But the points he brings up are usually like last hitting well, tp ing when needed etc. It's all very one dimensional and easy to comment on. Such things shouldn't even be the conditional difference between a legit 5k and a 3k player. Like do u think you can be as good as sing sing if u have his mechanical skill? (Which seems to be ur main point - all the jazz about perception in the fraction of a second lol). What about the ability to make plays which comes from game understanding.
Another thing that ticks me off is how relentless keeps going on about he lose on purpose just so he can win with drow. I mean if u can't even win in 3.5k bracket why are u arguing with someone way better than you? If that's not arrogance idk what that is.
Don't reply me with saying you can understand the game as well as kitrak and still be 3k.
No, Flyingpigs none of this has anything to due with me being good at dota or wishing I was or thinking I could be. I have no interest in it at all. I am an analyst. I make hundreds of millions of dollars for large companies by analyzing systems and making changes that improve their operations. I do this because its fun for me, because I am very good at it.
Similarly I enjoy analyzing dota. I know I am right, and I don't care in the slightest bit that certain people can't tell the difference or don't want to admit it. I am just having fun, like you do playing the game. Whenever I have time, because my job is easy and I get it done with extra time to spare... then I do extra analysis for free, again because I just like doing it.
Many people mistake confidence for arrogance. They are really quite different. Kitrak is arrogant. I am confident. That is why he rages and spews insults, while I try to help him understand his life. I like to see what people will do and how they will react and change or not change.
How is it that I am able to design airplanes, but have never flown one? Could I fly an airplane? Maybe, but certainly not right now having never tried. But I can tell you how to make one from raw materials all the way to final production.
It doesn't appear that you want to understand. But I'll reiterate anyway.
This was not a post about me having trouble with bloodseeker and ppl beating me by tping away. If you notice, that did not happen. I won the game. I crushed them despite 33 tp scrolls used against me.
This was a thread started to show that 3k players DO in fact use tp scrolls, but they use them ineffectively. Hopefully now you get the point.
I really don't see any reasonable way for you to imagine that I am arrogant. I claim nowhere, in years, not once that I am a great, amazing dota player. I don't want to people to think that. I go to great lengths to show evidence that I am not. But you blindly read your own feelings into my writing. You are projecting your own arrogance and pride with no basis at all in reality.
It is the fact that you refuse you recognize your natural advantages and attribute all of your success in the game to your own deserving it... that is why you are mad. That is why you say everyone could do it, because you want to believe you are a great amazing dota player and deserve something for it. And you do deserve something, a high MMR score. But you do not deserve immunity from treating others with respect or immunity from criticism.
i played a party q game a week ago and 4k people didn't buy TPs to counter rupture
what's the verdict here guys
No, I have never claimed to have the mind of a 5k player. That's absurd. Especially since there is NO SUCH THING, as a 5k player intellect. 5k players are not smarter than anyone lower or higher MMR. MMR has almost nothing to do with understanding the game and even less to do with basic intelligence.
I don't make any excuses for my MMR, currently at 3133 solo and 3353 party. I don't try to hide it. I don't care that it is lower than whatever number you might prefer. It is truly quite unimportant to any arguments I make.
I see that you choose to continue to bang your head against the wall that I represent and the emotional trauma from this action has caused you to imagine that I am doing this in a game I won easily... but somehow you being completely frustrated has you imagining that I was frustrated with the game.
Another cogent question Frozen. The verdict is that knowledge of the use of tp scrolls does not depend on MMR. Rather it is particular to individual players at lots of MMR levels.
In general higher MMR players use more tp scrolls. But this is not because of something they know. Rather it is because using a tp scroll works better for them since they have to ability to perceive when to use it precisely enough to get it right.
No Kitrak I have never said that I believe I should be 5k MMR and that reaction speed is holding me back. I haven't said it because I don't believe it. In fact I've said the opposite many times.
It is sometimes astonishing that people don't recognize that some players are vastly more talented in dota, just like in basketball and in fact in everything in life. But apparently some people really don't see it.
Everyone has different levels of ability in every area. As you develop your potential you will rise in MMR. But whatever you do eventually you will reach a limit you cannot cross based on your ability to quickly and accurately perceive the game and act on that information. This should not even be controversial.
I have played with and against pro players, maybe a few hundred games, mostly in dota 1. I am not anywhere near as good as they are, but I have played with them and against them to directly experience what it is like. I like to get the idea of how pro players think from watching their replays to see what they look at and what they click exactly. I find I have to slow it down to 0.25 speed to see all of it well. Also talking to them really helps to understand so I add them to friends when I can and ask their opinions on various things to gain different perspectives.
Hey Relentless, I dare you to play a few games in -perfectworld it will make you write even bigger essays.
Please do so, your threads are like honey on my nipples. Feels good reading such a fine discussion.
i think anyone who plays enough times on china or eu west would never want to touch the abomination that is us west and non-prime time us east
latter 2 is like playing with sub-human species ^^
"all the evidence in the world shows that if you practice dota you get better at it and can eventually play against top players"
This is ridiculous. It's obviously false... really its hard to believe you actually believe it and are not just continuing to hold that position because you fell trapped.
Perhaps what you really are trying to express is that Kitrak, personally was able to practice enough and get better and eventually play against top players. But 10 million ordinary people were not able, and you keep forgetting that. You want to believe they just don't bother to try hard enough. Effort, dedication is important, but it is not sufficient. Just as all the effort in the world will not make an ordinary man into a pro basketball player.
This argument we are having is another excellent illustration of the point. And this wisdom has been known since ancient times. It is common to the human experience.
Ecclesiastes 6:10 "Whatever has come to be has already been named, and it is known what man is, and that he is not able to dispute with one stronger than he."
@FroZen
3000 MMR USA = 1000 MMR China
Would be funny to see Relelntless drop 2k MMR due to no communication and ping.
I'd say you're both right and wrong, I don't think like 5k/6k/7k players are some kind of gifted sons of jesus blessed with natural talent and skill. I'd argue that any player that fullfills the following requirements can become just as good:
1. Has a basic level of hand-eye coordination to the level where you do not misclick frequently
2. Has a basic level of mouse control which allows you to move your mouse efficiently
3. Is patient enough to study own replays and better players replays
4. Has a good attitude and focuses on learning something from games as opposed to just press find match like a monkey
I'd say about 40-50% of the dota 2 players has the capability to do this, some people are just too inpatient, and most are too stupid to realize they're bad and that's what holding most people back.
i don't think either of u is 100% correct, it's more like "yes most people still have lots of potential, but each person's latent skill curve is different."
by this i mean
1) most people aren't playing to their full potential (i.e. a 3k guy who applies himself correctly might be 4k in a few months)
2) some people take much longer to learn a skill than others, most will give up before they reach close to their maximum potential
3) people's skill caps vary greatly (this is where i have to agree with relentless, i have LOTS of friends who have been playing longer than i have and are still fucking awful at dota, there's no helping them. they're right where they belong)
you can argue relentless is wrong on #1, because he erroneously attributes some people plateauing to "not having talent," but #3 seems fairly straightforward. not everyone can become a basketball star even if they played 5 hours/day, 5 days/week (just to use the example you provided).
take for instance human longevity, demographers attribute about 35% of variability to genetics, and 65% to social factors. you're literally arguing "yes people can live longer if they just eat well, exercise, etc." which is true, but that doesn't eliminate the fact 2 people living under similar conditions will die at different ages, which is beyond their control
if u asked me to defend this position, i would give examples of skills that separate "above average" from the great players, like
1) putting your cursor pre-emptively to where you predict an enemy will appear so u can disable them the moment they blink out of fog (most people above 5k don't seem to do this often, if at all)
2) last hitting perfectly under tower
3) checking the minimap in the blink of an eye to see where a fight is breaking out (usually it takes me 1-1.5 seconds to react and click the section of the map, for the best players in the world they do it in like 0.2 seconds)
there are other examples, but these are things i don't think i would get down even if i practiced over and over again. when i watch 7k players play dota, and their team sucks shit, they do some amazing things to turn the game around that i know i would fail to pull off.
and that's fine with me, i don't need to be that skilled to enjoy the game
I once played Techies, not sure if like.
Of course natural ability means that ultimately some players can be better than others. It's crazy to think otherwise.
However, dota knowledge is so underdeveloped (look how long it took bloodseeker to appear in this patch for example) that that differ nice is almost entirely theoretical. With dedication and the right coaching almost everyone could improve themselves to being an excellent player.
hahaha
I tend to avoid your threads but I had to reply to this "MMR has almost nothing to do with understanding the game". If you were be a support player you would understand that this is completely false.
^ +1 being able to properly support has everything to do with understanding of the game. If you have no understanding of the game, your supporting will be awful and you will never get MMR if you're a support player cause you're fundamentals are weak.
Understanding the game is important for players in all positions. It could be argued that understanding the carry role is simpler than understanding the support role. But both need to be understood by both carry and support players to effectively coordinate their efforts.
I see the same kinds of understanding based mistakes made at 5k that I do at 3k MMR... at 2k MMR there are a lot of truly newer players who have played maybe less than 100 games and make a lot more mistakes based on a lack of understanding or knowledge of the game. But this is not the reason nearly all of them will stay close to 2k MMR. The root cause is not "they don't care" or "they don't try" etc. You have to understand why a casual gamer considers rising in MMR less important. Average players do not try as hard to learn or to win - this is true. But the reason is that people tryhard at things where they see results, where they get a benefit for their work.
If you are not paid for your work you will not work very hard. When a person takes up any pursuit or hobby, such as golf and finds that they are not very talented they are quite unlikely to put much time and effort into it because what effort is expended does not yield noticeable returns.
When a low skilled player sees that they win 49% of their games tryharding (remaining at 2.3k MMR) and still win 49% of the games just playing for fun, but dropping to 1.9k MMR they choose to remain at lower MMR and enjoy the game. Maybe they could eventually with much pain and frustration claw their way to 2.6k MMR... but why do it?
The people who advance to higher MMRs easily end up spending more time learning and growing because they have room to grow. The reality of their potential to be better inspires them to try to achieve it. Those who can't are not stupid. They are simply able to see in their early attempts to learn the game that its too hard for them and so they lose interest in tryharding. There is nothing wrong with this.
Anyone who sets their sights on being a pro dota player and really commits to try to achieve it is almost certain to be someone who has some chance of doing it. If they had no special talent, they would not be inclined to even think about attempting the project because whatever effort they did expend would return minimal results. Occasionally there might be someone delusional who thinks they are good while failing to climb out of the average range. But that's contrary to normal human psychology. People put effort into things that work. They don't normally return over and over to failure.
"With dedication and the right coaching almost everyone could improve themselves to being an excellent player."
This is not really true, IF by "excellent" you mean top 1% or some other objective standard of excellence. If you just mean, "everyone can improve"... sure everyone can improve. But everyone cannot be in the top 10%, or the top 1% etc. It's impossible by definition.
MMR is not an absolute measure. It is a relative measure. For you to gain MMR, someone must lose it. If you raise your game from being a top 20% player to being a top 10% player it only happens by knocking down everyone else who was previously above you. This is why over time, over millions of games, the higher MMRs all go to the people who are faster independent of all other factors.
Kitrak says "last hitting perfectly under tower is practicable u sorta have to know hero damages and stuff"
These are necessary, but not sufficient conditions. To lasthit perfectly under tower you do need to practice, and you do need to know how hero damage, creep damage and tower damage relate. It is helpful to try to follow an explicit pattern early in the game, but that pattern changes with specific circumstances and when and how many times to attack a creep needs to be subjectively felt rather than calculated because you only have a few seconds to decide if not tenths of a second to decide.
This knowledge and practice is not enough to make perfect lasthitting under tower possible. Just last night I missed a ton of lasthits under tower as Spectre with a q-blade because the network conditions were bad and it started spiking. Normally I can lasthit all or nearly all of the creeps in this situation, but because of technological problems I failed. My early farm was much slower than usual, but since my MMR is quite low right now everyone sucked at farming and I was still able to win.
https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1525177920 in fact at 22-3-17, as the game went on it became obvious that I don't belong in this game with that level of Spectre play.
I only got 40 lasthits by 10 minutes, which means I missed half of them in a very easy lane.
Some people however can't ever do it and can't learn to do it either. The reason they can't do it is lack of the ability to perceive fractions of a second precisely and lack of the ability to control their finger precisely. Because they can't see or feel the difference between the times when they get the lasthit and the times when they do not they remain forever unable to learn the pattern. Practicing doing it wrong never leads to getting it right no matter how much you practice.
Here's the thing I have seen. All this focus on theory, statistics etc. I feel makes you a worse player that those who just play the game and do what works for them. People in lower brackets tick all the boxes yes, but they're still horribly bad players.
Game knowledge ≠ understanding of what it takes to win a game.
Kitrak, at what point are you going to start really trying hard to improve your writing skills? At what point are you going to learn the difference between insults and arguments and become better at reasoning and analysis? At what point will you begin to work hard remaining consistent in your statements from day to day and post to post? At what point will you put serious effort into empathetically understanding opposing points of view?
You don't really try very hard to get any of these things right because you know from what limited experience you have that you will fail in these areas to discern the difference between success and failure. You know you are doing them wrong sometimes, but only vaguely. You can't really tell whether what you read or write makes sense or not. This is why you continue to speak nonsense, though you are vaguely aware that it is embarrassing for you to do it.
It is hypocritical of you to condemn the average dota player for not becoming excellent on the basis that its simply a choice everyone can make meanwhile you continue to display a paucity of lucidity in each statement you make and show no concern for improving or respect for your superiors to learn from them.
Havoc is correct. "Analysis is Paralysis" as the popular saying goes. It is contrary to what is needed to become an excellent dota player to spend lots of time and thought on understanding the game. The same is true in all sports. Talented athletes simply enjoy doing, and do what they like a lot naturally improving without thinking.
The best players typically just get a feel for the game, they don't think that much about it. Sometimes this causes them to develop habits that are appropriate in one situation but not in others. That is why there is such a difference between pro players and pubstars. The pubstar, to become a pro must relearn how to play. The habits developed in solo que don't translate well to organized contests.
This is not to say that athletic talent has no brains... its that if you want analysis of what habits to practice, the athlete who will be best at performing is the wrong person to consult on what should be practiced. And to achieve their personal best, the athlete should not think about it, but just do it. Let someone else do the thinking. This is just how people work, human nature as it were.
"It is contrary to what is needed to become an excellent dota player to spend lots of time and thought on understanding the game. The same is true in all sports. Talented athletes simply enjoy doing, and do what they like a lot naturally improving without thinking." You are wrong here again. If you don't think about what you could have done differently and how to improve (basically game understanding) then you will improve very slowly. Game understanding comes naturally with experience but JUST spamming games is hardly the best way to improve. As an example, you have played more Dota 2 games than I have but I would argue that I know a lot more about this game than you do.
relentless is still no match for cc1 the meta forger
Jussi you chopped my statements in half and then you want to complain that the half you ignored wasn't there.
But I'll put it back together for you anyway. Spamming games is how talented players naturally improve their skills simply by doing. But this is not the right sort of practice for pro play. For that you need to practice coordination, and specific things. For that you need a plan, and the plan should come from someone excellent at planning - this is unlikely to be the same person who is excellent at executing the plan.
The athlete will better use a weapon than the average man, with practice they can outskill the enemy in single combat. But in a war you need to follow the orders of the general. Your skill alone will not be sufficient to win. Mindless practice IS more effective than thinking to improve skills. The thinking should be done beforehand to choose WHAT to mindlessly practice. I am not saying, leave your brain at the loading screen. I am saying get your of your head, and feel the flow of the game. Most people can't do it. But if you can, this is the path to your best performance.
The only thing that ticks me off is that relentless thinks he understand the game as well as a 5k. But the points he brings up are usually like last hitting well, tp ing when needed etc. It's all very one dimensional and easy to comment on. Such things shouldn't even be the conditional difference between a legit 5k and a 3k player. Like do u think you can be as good as sing sing if u have his mechanical skill? (Which seems to be ur main point - all the jazz about perception in the fraction of a second lol). What about the ability to make plays which comes from game understanding.
Another thing that ticks me off is how relentless keeps going on about he lose on purpose just so he can win with drow. I mean if u can't even win in 3.5k bracket why are u arguing with someone way better than you? If that's not arrogance idk what that is.
Don't reply me with saying you can understand the game as well as kitrak and still be 3k.
No, Flyingpigs none of this has anything to due with me being good at dota or wishing I was or thinking I could be. I have no interest in it at all. I am an analyst. I make hundreds of millions of dollars for large companies by analyzing systems and making changes that improve their operations. I do this because its fun for me, because I am very good at it.
Similarly I enjoy analyzing dota. I know I am right, and I don't care in the slightest bit that certain people can't tell the difference or don't want to admit it. I am just having fun, like you do playing the game. Whenever I have time, because my job is easy and I get it done with extra time to spare... then I do extra analysis for free, again because I just like doing it.
Many people mistake confidence for arrogance. They are really quite different. Kitrak is arrogant. I am confident. That is why he rages and spews insults, while I try to help him understand his life. I like to see what people will do and how they will react and change or not change.
> I know I am right
> I don't care
Such skeptic, wow.
How do u spend so much time analysing the game and having such a good game understanding but yet not capable of using them?
How is it that I am able to design airplanes, but have never flown one? Could I fly an airplane? Maybe, but certainly not right now having never tried. But I can tell you how to make one from raw materials all the way to final production.
haha
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