my arrows are normally disgustingly (does this word exist? lols) bad but i literally win games just because i shoot them all the time and there's always that lucky game-winning arrow
also i wouldnt go mid with her, only if theres no other alternatives, shes so strong at roaming and at dual laning (if ur arrows are good mid is nice though)
dam ill play mirana now just because i remembered how good it felt when hitting a long arrow :>>>
I'm not overestimating how much gear a trilane will give at all - I typically have Wand, Basi, regular Boots and a partial or full Bracer by 6.
I'm not looking at things in a vacuum (and I dislike that so many people do), I'm specifically using context for my reasoning, because as you said yourself (and so I didn't think I'd need to re-mention) - managing your mana is important. Without something to increase your mana pool, or regen to keep your pool full (this is why a lot of people get Bottle, which as I said before is a bit overrated) max Shuriken forces BH into only having 1, maybe 2 attempts to gank before you go back to base (or respawn because you died.)
And that's a totally good playstyle! But I feel your build does not embrace that playstyle. Bottle is useful for that style, so calling it a "mistake" seems absurd. A full bottle will give you another 2 gank attempts before going back to base, which is huge since every moment you're not setting up a kill is valuable time wasted. It's the reason many pros will get bottle. I mean you mention funn1k yourself, and he gets bottle in pro games all the time!
no you gank rotate gank rotate. Managing your mana is different that buying items to cover your lack of mana management. I do not bend my build for whatever items pros pick up in each match or else I would be saying blink dagger tranq is the new meta because bone7 did it. Bottle is a crutch to cover badly timed ganks MOST of the time there are some situations in which I do buy bottle which is why I did not say NEVER BUY BOTTLE EVER. 1-2 ganks per fountain retreat is more than enough for you and your team to snowball. Bottle just ends up being a selfish item that does little for you except getting those pretty last hits on kills.
I feel like you're not addressing my specific points.
Also the bone7 comment is hyperbole and distracting from the conversation. I did NOT say "you should do x because the pros do it". I specifically said "It's the reason many pros will get bottle", and thus the REASON should be taken into account when making item decisions.
But maybe we just need to agree to disagree if we can't have a thorough discussion for whatever reason.
I did adress what you mentioned, you are saying that bottle will help you score more that 1-2 ganks per fountain run I find that to be a acceptable amount. Shuriken being overused to kill(steal) your mana poor is just poor mana management imo some people disagree. I find that with orb of venom shuriken is only needed to get the target low enough to force him to run and die running.
You have lowest GPM, except Rubick and 2,8k hero damage is like you not even playing this game. All this just because of couple sentry wards?
Btw, maybe you must add something about counterwarding to your guide. Sometimes I see Broodmother starts with sentry wars. Maybe it's worth to buy some on BH or ask supports (but I know how limited on gold they are).
Not sure, i haven't watched the replay but looking at their lineup
Playing BH is a risk with big reward
Since he is not farming heroes, getting lowest GPM if the gank phase fail is common, unless the MMORPG's infamous battlefury build
He's quite reliant on their team, if your team is not playing aggresive, it would be hard for you to guarantee kill, eventhough you can kill some squishies on the other team by yourself.
BH is not rich if he doesn't get track kills, so counter warding is very situational. And i would really suggest for a support to do this because you can rely on hero like BH in mid/gank phase because he can also give you track kills
In that game, some pick are counter BH, like
- lich's frost armor
- viper's corossive skin,
- silence from puck
- doom's doom
- slark's dark pact
idk about the hero picking phase, but if sampson picked first. He probably got counter picked hard
Bounty Hunter used to be a very popular hero anyway (he was 1st or 2nd at the popularity pool)
so you would expect a lot of people know how to counter this hero in so many ways.
it was a 4man stack that flipped out when I did not follow their leader into a suicidal mission thru the towers. I still tried to pull a miracle out of my ass because I hate losing when I play BH. I have to deal with sentry wards every game I am just thankful I dont have to deal with a group of 8 year old kids every game. At least I got a ton of extra reports from that game (I reported each of them for harassment and whenever a report gets someone put in LPQ you get bonus reports).
I prob should have just sat in the fountain instead of butchering my stats playing with them.
while the hero picks where annoying it would have never been as big of a issue if I was not que'd with the most childish 4man stack I have ever had to deal with
You misunderstood, I said it gives you 1-2 *extra* ganks per fountain run, not 1-2 total. That's double the number of ganks per fountain run (using your own numbers) , which is huge and completely worth 1 item slot.
Also people shouldn't put too much stock into match stats, they tend to be skewed by the end. I frequently buy silly things when the game is in the bag, or build heros in weird ways for kicks (http://dotabuff.com/matches/530118040).
boots, tp, shield , orb, magic wand and bracer/drums
you have to throw away one of those for bottle in the early game and none of those are worth it to make up for poor mana management. Also keep in mind just because it gives you the mana to be able to make 4 ganks before you head back to the fountain does not mean that there are 4 ganks available at any given time, you have to keep in mind that you are fighting players not bots. You are under the impression that going to the fountain is a 20min hike which is hardly the case.....
If you had stopped using hyperboles ("20min hike") to marginalize my point and explained WHY you have a stance instead of simply WHAT your stance is (why is bottle usually inferior to each of those 6 items, not just state that it is as a fact), then we could have reached some meaningful discussion and insight. Using blanket dismissals like "it's an excuse for poor management" adds nothing to understanding or insight of the hero.
As I mentioned, I don't even get bottle on him often, but for the playstyle you outline in this guide I don't see you mention any strong reason to skip it.
@Sampson
I had an idea, after watching your games. You spend many time running around in stealth, so I think tranquil boots have some synergy with this play style. Instead of spending money on regen items, i started with
1) Ring of Regen
2) Ring of Protection
3) 2x GG Branches
I bought boots in side shop, and solved all hp regen issues. I think I saved a lot of money this way (including TP scrolls, when you have to go back to heal).
Tested them out after the bone7 match where he did the tranq boots blink dagger naix bomb build, did not like them. My dmg was too low and not being able to phase became annoying. Id rather spend money on regen and have good boots then save a little money and have poor boots
Well, you still can buy Phase Boots, even if you have Tranquils alredy (they add +4 armor btw, no shield needed).
1350 gold for +24 damage and extra speed - good deal.
Just wondering when would SNY be a better pickup than a Halberd or BKB. I never get this item, ever, since I don't see a possibility where it would be better than a similar costing item.
Also if you disprove of Bottle, why not go Urn? I like both items (but not both in the same game) so that they give you a little extra staying power on the map, both give HP and mana regen, and in Urn's case, a little extra damage. You say Bottle is a selfish item, but what about Urn? A team heal can hardly be considered selfish.
I personally don't get Orb of Venom, I feel that the slow isn't needed and constantly having the mana to throw Shuriken from afar will net you more kills than having a Orb of Venom in your inventory.
I also max Jinada over Shadow Walk, since imo having the extra burst damage and lower cooldown would kill an enemy quicker than whittling them down with OoV right clicks after your initial invis burst. With teammates who will likely also have some sort of disable, the OoV slow is hardly going to contribute and be the difference between a kill or not.
Maybe you won't be getting kills all the time, but you'll be able to use Track and Shadow Walk more liberally, and still be able to use Shuriken every gank.
While I do like urn my build lacks the item slots to keep it and with drums my health pool is at a acceptable level. Orb of venon keeps your target within track range(900 units) in the event that some form of disable hits you(the cost is so low for the benefit it gives which is why alot of pro players are picking it up on melee heroes). Even if you go the 2-1-2-1 build then start maxing Jinada next you will not reach a 6 CD slow until lv 9 which is way to late to have finally having a reasonable slow.
S&Y is a mid game snowball item which gives bounty hunter speed, dmg health and a slow. BKB is for when you have to teamfight which is why you do not see me pick it up commonly in pubs because of the lack of proper teamfights BUT it is a necessary item when I do play skirms or the close pub match.
Now onto the WW vs Jinada discussion if you look at the guide it states that there is flexibility in going for Jinada before WW BUT since the guide is done by me I tend to lean towards my preference of having higher upfront burst dmg and longer invis time to reduce mana usage.
Building BH for the late game is like building AM for the early game, yes it happens but only when everything goes wrong and you have no other choices.
Every hero needs some regen items. Sampson likes Vlad+Linken, I proposed Tranquil Boots, other options are Urn or Bottle. You just need something of this list. Which is better? Depends on matchup, I guess.
Very nice guide. However include that depending on hero composition on other team actually getting boots as a starting is viable. Don't believe me? Take a look at Lumi's new Dota guide. Also, I think grabbing 3 levels for in Shuriken Toss is better for nuke damage. Also add that ganking mid is a viable options if not getting farm in lane.
lv 3 shuriken only gives 50 extra dmg and I feel that the perma invis is much better. Overall you only lose 20 dmg anyway. Also thank you for reminding me to mention boots it is one of those things that I do without thinking :P
Why isn't Urn mentioned? It gives you decent strength, plus some mana regen to help counteract the mana inefficiency BH has.
Also, you help your allies out and it can be used offensively to secure a kill.
I can't figure out how I never noticed that drums could be good on Gondar, the MS helps you roam and chase while it solves alot of his early-mid STR and INT problems, I used to rush Vlad's for the mana regen before :|
Do you think getting Basi before drums is good though and not a full vlads?
She still is alot of fun even tho I am awful with her so I think it is a good investment to improve on her
The same thing happens to me with clock dude
Look at this shit
http://dotabuff.com/players/52567729/matches?hero=clockwerk&game_mode=&match_type=real
I am doing more mirana games today #road to 20% winrate
seeee Dork my mirana games happen like that all the time
yep, sad game, eg throws man :(
my arrows are normally disgustingly (does this word exist? lols) bad but i literally win games just because i shoot them all the time and there's always that lucky game-winning arrow
also i wouldnt go mid with her, only if theres no other alternatives, shes so strong at roaming and at dual laning (if ur arrows are good mid is nice though)
dam ill play mirana now just because i remembered how good it felt when hitting a long arrow :>>>
I have a friend that only plays mirana if i play bane or something to setup a easy arrow for him
I'm not overestimating how much gear a trilane will give at all - I typically have Wand, Basi, regular Boots and a partial or full Bracer by 6.
I'm not looking at things in a vacuum (and I dislike that so many people do), I'm specifically using context for my reasoning, because as you said yourself (and so I didn't think I'd need to re-mention) - managing your mana is important. Without something to increase your mana pool, or regen to keep your pool full (this is why a lot of people get Bottle, which as I said before is a bit overrated) max Shuriken forces BH into only having 1, maybe 2 attempts to gank before you go back to base (or respawn because you died.)
And that's a totally good playstyle! But I feel your build does not embrace that playstyle. Bottle is useful for that style, so calling it a "mistake" seems absurd. A full bottle will give you another 2 gank attempts before going back to base, which is huge since every moment you're not setting up a kill is valuable time wasted. It's the reason many pros will get bottle. I mean you mention funn1k yourself, and he gets bottle in pro games all the time!
You're just lacking consistency here.
no you gank rotate gank rotate. Managing your mana is different that buying items to cover your lack of mana management. I do not bend my build for whatever items pros pick up in each match or else I would be saying blink dagger tranq is the new meta because bone7 did it. Bottle is a crutch to cover badly timed ganks MOST of the time there are some situations in which I do buy bottle which is why I did not say NEVER BUY BOTTLE EVER. 1-2 ganks per fountain retreat is more than enough for you and your team to snowball. Bottle just ends up being a selfish item that does little for you except getting those pretty last hits on kills.
I feel like you're not addressing my specific points.
Also the bone7 comment is hyperbole and distracting from the conversation. I did NOT say "you should do x because the pros do it". I specifically said "It's the reason many pros will get bottle", and thus the REASON should be taken into account when making item decisions.
But maybe we just need to agree to disagree if we can't have a thorough discussion for whatever reason.
I did adress what you mentioned, you are saying that bottle will help you score more that 1-2 ganks per fountain run I find that to be a acceptable amount. Shuriken being overused to kill(steal) your mana poor is just poor mana management imo some people disagree. I find that with orb of venom shuriken is only needed to get the target low enough to force him to run and die running.
@Sampson
What happened it this game?
http://dotabuff.com/matches/531936202
You have lowest GPM, except Rubick and 2,8k hero damage is like you not even playing this game. All this just because of couple sentry wards?
Btw, maybe you must add something about counterwarding to your guide. Sometimes I see Broodmother starts with sentry wars. Maybe it's worth to buy some on BH or ask supports (but I know how limited on gold they are).
Not sure, i haven't watched the replay but looking at their lineup
Playing BH is a risk with big reward
Since he is not farming heroes, getting lowest GPM if the gank phase fail is common, unless the MMORPG's infamous battlefury build
He's quite reliant on their team, if your team is not playing aggresive, it would be hard for you to guarantee kill, eventhough you can kill some squishies on the other team by yourself.
BH is not rich if he doesn't get track kills, so counter warding is very situational. And i would really suggest for a support to do this because you can rely on hero like BH in mid/gank phase because he can also give you track kills
In that game, some pick are counter BH, like
- lich's frost armor
- viper's corossive skin,
- silence from puck
- doom's doom
- slark's dark pact
idk about the hero picking phase, but if sampson picked first. He probably got counter picked hard
Bounty Hunter used to be a very popular hero anyway (he was 1st or 2nd at the popularity pool)
so you would expect a lot of people know how to counter this hero in so many ways.
it was a 4man stack that flipped out when I did not follow their leader into a suicidal mission thru the towers. I still tried to pull a miracle out of my ass because I hate losing when I play BH. I have to deal with sentry wards every game I am just thankful I dont have to deal with a group of 8 year old kids every game. At least I got a ton of extra reports from that game (I reported each of them for harassment and whenever a report gets someone put in LPQ you get bonus reports).
I prob should have just sat in the fountain instead of butchering my stats playing with them.
while the hero picks where annoying it would have never been as big of a issue if I was not que'd with the most childish 4man stack I have ever had to deal with
You misunderstood, I said it gives you 1-2 *extra* ganks per fountain run, not 1-2 total. That's double the number of ganks per fountain run (using your own numbers) , which is huge and completely worth 1 item slot.
Also people shouldn't put too much stock into match stats, they tend to be skewed by the end. I frequently buy silly things when the game is in the bag, or build heros in weird ways for kicks (http://dotabuff.com/matches/530118040).
boots, tp, shield , orb, magic wand and bracer/drums
you have to throw away one of those for bottle in the early game and none of those are worth it to make up for poor mana management. Also keep in mind just because it gives you the mana to be able to make 4 ganks before you head back to the fountain does not mean that there are 4 ganks available at any given time, you have to keep in mind that you are fighting players not bots. You are under the impression that going to the fountain is a 20min hike which is hardly the case.....
If you had stopped using hyperboles ("20min hike") to marginalize my point and explained WHY you have a stance instead of simply WHAT your stance is (why is bottle usually inferior to each of those 6 items, not just state that it is as a fact), then we could have reached some meaningful discussion and insight. Using blanket dismissals like "it's an excuse for poor management" adds nothing to understanding or insight of the hero.
As I mentioned, I don't even get bottle on him often, but for the playstyle you outline in this guide I don't see you mention any strong reason to skip it.
As it stands, I'm disappointed.
My strong reason to skip it is because it is not worth the item slot that there are better items that have much greater impact
I failed.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/533331857
One of those games, that discourage me to play anything but support.
follow the guide
decent guide, just went 13-1 despite farming like shit cuz my ping is like 250 in SEA (also my laning sux)
also i hate bottle on bh too
Farm heroes
@Sampson
I had an idea, after watching your games. You spend many time running around in stealth, so I think tranquil boots have some synergy with this play style. Instead of spending money on regen items, i started with
1) Ring of Regen
2) Ring of Protection
3) 2x GG Branches
I bought boots in side shop, and solved all hp regen issues. I think I saved a lot of money this way (including TP scrolls, when you have to go back to heal).
Think about it.
Tested them out after the bone7 match where he did the tranq boots blink dagger naix bomb build, did not like them. My dmg was too low and not being able to phase became annoying. Id rather spend money on regen and have good boots then save a little money and have poor boots
and with bounty hunters high base armor I feel that not having a stout/poor man's shield is huge mistake
Well, you still can buy Phase Boots, even if you have Tranquils alredy (they add +4 armor btw, no shield needed).
1350 gold for +24 damage and extra speed - good deal.
armor is % based while block is a static base number. This is why block is good at the lower levels when dmg is alot lower
Just wondering when would SNY be a better pickup than a Halberd or BKB. I never get this item, ever, since I don't see a possibility where it would be better than a similar costing item.
Also if you disprove of Bottle, why not go Urn? I like both items (but not both in the same game) so that they give you a little extra staying power on the map, both give HP and mana regen, and in Urn's case, a little extra damage. You say Bottle is a selfish item, but what about Urn? A team heal can hardly be considered selfish.
I personally don't get Orb of Venom, I feel that the slow isn't needed and constantly having the mana to throw Shuriken from afar will net you more kills than having a Orb of Venom in your inventory.
I also max Jinada over Shadow Walk, since imo having the extra burst damage and lower cooldown would kill an enemy quicker than whittling them down with OoV right clicks after your initial invis burst. With teammates who will likely also have some sort of disable, the OoV slow is hardly going to contribute and be the difference between a kill or not.
Maybe you won't be getting kills all the time, but you'll be able to use Track and Shadow Walk more liberally, and still be able to use Shuriken every gank.
While I do like urn my build lacks the item slots to keep it and with drums my health pool is at a acceptable level. Orb of venon keeps your target within track range(900 units) in the event that some form of disable hits you(the cost is so low for the benefit it gives which is why alot of pro players are picking it up on melee heroes). Even if you go the 2-1-2-1 build then start maxing Jinada next you will not reach a 6 CD slow until lv 9 which is way to late to have finally having a reasonable slow.
S&Y is a mid game snowball item which gives bounty hunter speed, dmg health and a slow. BKB is for when you have to teamfight which is why you do not see me pick it up commonly in pubs because of the lack of proper teamfights BUT it is a necessary item when I do play skirms or the close pub match.
Now onto the WW vs Jinada discussion if you look at the guide it states that there is flexibility in going for Jinada before WW BUT since the guide is done by me I tend to lean towards my preference of having higher upfront burst dmg and longer invis time to reduce mana usage.
Building BH for the late game is like building AM for the early game, yes it happens but only when everything goes wrong and you have no other choices.
edited a few sections
Every hero needs some regen items. Sampson likes Vlad+Linken, I proposed Tranquil Boots, other options are Urn or Bottle. You just need something of this list. Which is better? Depends on matchup, I guess.
Very nice guide. However include that depending on hero composition on other team actually getting boots as a starting is viable. Don't believe me? Take a look at Lumi's new Dota guide. Also, I think grabbing 3 levels for in Shuriken Toss is better for nuke damage. Also add that ganking mid is a viable options if not getting farm in lane.
lv 3 shuriken only gives 50 extra dmg and I feel that the perma invis is much better. Overall you only lose 20 dmg anyway. Also thank you for reminding me to mention boots it is one of those things that I do without thinking :P
http://www.dotacinema.com/forum/index.php?/topic/4979-crowns-guide-to-bountyhunter/
Why isn't Urn mentioned? It gives you decent strength, plus some mana regen to help counteract the mana inefficiency BH has.
Also, you help your allies out and it can be used offensively to secure a kill.
lack of item slots
I can't figure out how I never noticed that drums could be good on Gondar, the MS helps you roam and chase while it solves alot of his early-mid STR and INT problems, I used to rush Vlad's for the mana regen before :|
Do you think getting Basi before drums is good though and not a full vlads?
you just delay the drums
Yeah I guess, even though basi is only 500g that's still almost a bracer which is good in lane.
Gonna have to start trying this from now on, thanks based Sampson.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/555954334
track money
Wow a necro bounty hunter. Odd.
I buy it when my team has downs and doesnt push fast
I see a Kappa in the opposite team.
aura hunter.
I have a noob question:
a.- Right clik (100dmg) +Shadow walk(120dmg) + jinada (225% extra dmg)= 715 dmg
or
b.- Right clik (100dmg) +jinada (225% extra dmg) = 325 | 325+ shadow walk(120 dmg)= 445dmg
And another question:
Why not daedalus? I know no stack with the jinada critical, but gives a lot of dmg and u can have a second crit, i think after mkb is not bad item.
added more info on why Bfury is awful
Laning Stage : Your job is to stay alive and obtain level 6.
stop reading after seeing this lol
please humor me on how low MM trash plays BH?
do you farm the lane? Get a BF and become a carry?
do you max crit and invis and spam invis and kill their carry?
please I really want to know so I can adjust the guide for incompetent mongoloids