General DiscussionImproving on Dark Seer

you have to pick him when there's someone on your team that could benefit from vacuum like antimage or axe

I see, but aside from the picks on your team. Is there anything you can tell me regarding the game play?

I think Anti-carry ds works on pubs, if the enemy team picks a lot of carry you can try ds, a good wall and vacuum can win a tf easily, its better if you have scepter
I like to play ds no hard support, more like an initiator, and for my stats I think it works for me
Arcane boots, vanguard, blade mail and radiance are my most common items for him

http://dotabuff.com/players/109488687/matches?game_mode=&hero=dark-seer&match_type=real

Ahh, but it seems like vanguard won't be able to do a lot after the early mid game, so wouldn't a mek be a better choice because of the additional armor + heal for the whole team?

Are there any tips/tricks for farming with ds? Like where to place the shell etc

If you learn to jungle/offlane with darkseer as the position 3-4 hero you should do fine. you can counter melee lanes in the early game, only get a vanguard if they have 3+ phys dps heroes. don't buy a blink in most situations, remember your surge can be really helpful if used on a teammate when ganking/chasing. Other than that maybe watch pro games or practice! save the vacuum for 3+ heroes in fights, it works great in roshan pits or getting people stuck on ward highground =p

I usually solo off-lane Dark Seer. I always throw an ion shell on the 2nd or 3rd melee creep on a wave. I usually try to build a Mek and a Pipe if I can get enough gold.

@Pilot
maybe, actually I always keep the vanguard and I never buy a mek because I dont play him as a hard support

Always max Ion shell first, or at least keep it on lvl 3, if you're against meele, put the shell on your 2nd MEELE creep, so they cant lasthit
if you're against ranged put the shell on THEIR RANGED creep or the catapult,
If youre on the hard lane you can go to their jungle and put a shell on a creep on their pulling camp
If they always kill the creep with the shell first put shell on one of their creeps and try not to kill it

If your laning against broodmother, pl or meepo, a good trick is putting the shell on them it would deal a lot of dmg against the spiders, ilusions or other meepos

Always give surge to a teammate if hes chasing someone, or if youre chasing someone surge yourself and bodyblock them (always with shell on)

@Albino

Yeah, I've been meaning to watch pro games with player perspectives hahaha

@Killjoy and Quixo

Thanks for the tips. And hmm, I never knew you could place the ion shell on their catapult. I've been meaning to figure out how to zone out their ranged heroes.

How about positioning in fights? How should I go about that?

Hope this helps. Not quite sure if the replay is still up, though.

http://dotabuff.com/matches/331772300

Damn, that seems like some intense play. I'll see if I can get my hands on that replay hahaha

I have issues with dark seer soloing offlane. I always seem to push the lane too far or not enough. Where exactly do you want the lane to be? Good tri lanes seem to just block me out of xp range if I push it hard at all.

make sure you have wards (dont be obvious in ward location) if the supports are keeping you out of exp range alot of the time they are in exp range and sap alot of the carries exp which means you just need to get as much 'safe exp' as you can get and just wait for people to start roaming. Just remember DS can destroy any support that tries to go toe to toe with him early game and if he pushes you back too far just return the favor and kill him :P

@Mark

Judging from what I've been getting from this thread. If you push it out far enough, that gives you leeway to go farm their neutrals? Or simply disrupt their neutral farm. Well, that's how I understand it anyway

@Sampson

Well that's useful hahaha. Obviously I'll have to try to get the timing for all of this, but I think I'll get it soon enough

When do you guys think Dark Seer should start contributing to team fights/ganking/leave his lane? Does he have to wait for his first big item or earn specific levels?

completely situational

@Pilot, you don't have to wait for your big item. Dark seer is more like harass, harass and harass; or you can go roam and help ganking other lane. I'm a allrounder. I play darkseer #5 the most and i have two kind of build.

One is complete ganking/skill support where i use surge and ion shell on carry so we can gank. For Item build i will go Tranquil Boots with soulring, bottle (optional), vanguard/Hood of Defiance(optional or depend on situation/heroes), meka and pipe (with ion shell combine with soulring/bottle, you can farm alot) then either blade mail or ghost scepter or Scythe of Vyse.

Two would be ganking/carry build. I will use surge and ionshell on myself then go on them when i am offlane. I will go with Tranquil Boots with soulring. If i farm alot, I will pick archane boot for later, bottle, meka, pipe, then Scythe of Vyse; if i farm less or die alot, then i would switch to phase boots, bottle, meka, pipe, and blade

For item side.
I never use blink since i can use surge and/or phase boots to go in tf fast, nor BoT when you can tp then surge and/or phase boots. I would buy Scepter when we can't win tf or there is alot of phy dmg carry. Oh don't forget the ward if the supports will get slayed while warding or you can surge them to play the ward.

For skill build,
I sometimes put first at ion shell, second surge, one on vaccum then max second and third; or vaccum,ion shell,surge then max first two.

Currently I have 43 Matches, 60.47% winrate, 2.91 KDA for darkseer. You may use my advice or make your own style.

- good time to pick darkseer: enemy have 2-3 melee heroes, your team have 1++ melee heroes. This will increase the early effectiveness of ion shell damage (during teamfight).
- first, usually i get courier + stout shield + salve + clarity
- dark seer basically can lane everywhere + jungle, but do not lane with your carry (if you ion, you'll take his creep/farm away)
- aim to harass if possible with ion shell, esp. against melee carries
- max ion shell + surge 3 level first
- dont get ulti at lv 6, the illusion damage is negligible at this point, and ur vacuum range is too low.
- get ulti at lv 10 & 11

- my item build up order:
1. arcane boots
2. mekans
wards and dust, basically i usually translate into second support here
3. See enemies: if lots of magical damage: build pipe
4. scythe of vyse / bkb / blink / aghanim
DONT EVER get vanguard. mekans is much more useful.

- early game (level 1-8): farm harrass with ion shell, go gank with ion+surge +1 teammate
- mid game: before teamfight, try to keep up 2 ion shells on ur melee ally + yourself, manage the mana to make sure u can vacuum + wall if possible.

- bad things to screw u up: silence and stun before u cast all ur aoe spells before teamfight. avoid this.

Well, I think I'll be able to practice everything else with this knowledge. Thanks for all of your help everybody! :D

did u try to ion two creeps instead of just one?

I love Dark seer, he's really good if you have good AOE spells and good communication. http://dotabuff.com/players/59725410/matches?hero=dark-seer&game_mode=&match_type=real (my items).

Game 1 - you can see I made a pipe because of enemy lineup (usually your team relies on YOU to make it), arcane and agh for mana support, but overall I was pretty fed so other items don't matter.

Nevermind game 2, game 3 - vanguard for survivability (hp, regen) and enemy teams has lots of physical damage, I was pretty poor so I bought arcane and soul ring for mana (in other cases I might get just the soul ring and aghs/hex/shiva and finish BoT later on), again pipe incoming, it's pretty much a good item every game because there are no teams that have no magic damage, maybe other items would be better but in general pipe is a good option (I usually have lots of farm with DS from ion shell and the team fight kills/assists), in this case shiva's might have been a much better choice though.

Game 4 - my team carried, I helped out in team fights with my skills and pipe, this build has a lackluster of mana and mana regen but quite enough survivability.

Before the game you have to decide if you can lane against the enemy trilane, if they don't have stuns it's easy, if they have 1 stun it's do-able, more stuns spells doom. In my situation I think I laned every time but one, in lower brackets people don't know how to shutdown dark seer and he's really tanky so it should be no trouble.
You should go for regen items in lane, soul ring must be my favorite because it gives you mana and hp regen, vanguard is a good choice too, gives you even more bulk (in mid-game you're almost unkillable unless you're out of position). In lane it's a good idea to cast ion shell every single wave because if enemies pull you are damaging their tower or their carry, while the ion shell is doing it's job you can try contesting the pull a bit. You destroy meele carries in lane if they have no sustainability, if they lack stuns, slows etc. you can even dive for kills just don't directly attack heroes or the tower will focus you, let your creeps tank and just do damage with ion shell. Against ranged heroes it's a different story, I think against good players it's really hard to harass them unless you get close yourself, you should probably be more passive in such a lane.
Usually you can start roaming with your team at around level 8-10, earlier if enemy team have gankers. Usually somebody with a stun or another ability will initiate, but sometimes it's up to you to surge in and cast your spells, you're really tanky so don't worry about getting bursted down, just make sure your team can follow up. Even if you die and your team gets a team wipe it's worth it. When you reach your peak (lvl 11 In my opinion) you should push with your team, this will get the attention of the enemy team and spark team fights. I like starting the fight by either placing ion shell on myself or my meele carry and running in with surge, casting vacuum, then wall (some people switch the order, the only difference that it makes is that when u cast wall people have more time to react and might get out of vacuum AOE). After that you probably have to focus supports, cast hex on most important hero etc etc...

Some pointers for making items:
Arcane boots - you can't afford more expensive mana items, you don't think the game will extend to late game, you're not sure about your situation.
Magic wand - my favorite item on any hero, there's no situation where it's useless, you shouldn't buy it if you're going for arcane, soul ring and/or vanguard, you don't need more regen than that.
Vanguard - good build up because you usually start with a stout shield and can buy the RoH from side shop, let's you stay in lane far better, let's you tank for your team and initiate.
Pipe - good for more regen, makes you a lot tankier against magic and your whole team against AOE. Fits DS quite well as he's the one in the frontline initiating.
Blink - good for surprise long range initiations - better when you have someone to follow up (Magnus, Enigma, Tidehunter, Shadow Fiend etc.). Gives good mobility overall.
BKB - situational, if the enemy have fast disables (hex, puck silence, abyssal etc.) let's you get the party starting.
Shiva - more protection against physical damage for you and your team, more nukes.
Aghanim - more damage from ultimate, much more hp and mana, better against heroes that stack stats (PL, CK, Riki etc.)
Refresher - for ultimate team wipes, the damage is obscene, their carries can survive because of bkbs but their supports will be in a world of pain.
Veil of discord - situational, increases magic damage output of your team (good for comboes with heroes that have lots of AOE damage). There are usually better items.
Hex - good at any stage of the game, DS can rush this item and have it at around 20+ minutes.

I might have left something out because I forgot about it, feel free to ask. I don't know if I helped you or if you even want to listen to my opinion, but I really value dark seer and almost always pick him in CM (I don't play him there though).
EDIT: Damn, it's so freaking long XDDD

@Nova, yes I did!

@Steror

I like long posts hahaha. Thanks for going in depth on your posts regarding item choices for dark seer and his game play. I think I am starting to get the hang of him (just have to remember to use that soul ring lol as well as learn how to offlane/disrupt their carry's lane better), but I think it comes down to me not being able to play with a lot of heroes that go well with dark seer. Hopefully I'll have more wombo comboes in the future hahaha