Well, good thing you can do on easy lane even in normal bracket is go stack creeps for pull.(double pull) Than pull that creeps normaly and get good lane advantage for your carry. But bad fact is in normal bracket ppl can`t even last hit and don`t know how to do good positioning anyway you can do that..will be usefull. Otherwise don`t make sense to stack other camps if no decent carry to clean it. Maybe better stack antients after 15-20+ min. if you have in team hero like Alchemist,Naix,Gyrocopter,Tinker,Skeleton King etc.. Also you need to tell em to clean it,cos obviosly at normal bracket they don`t expect that. GL
Most carries that build bf can clean stacks ex: pA,am,alch,jugg
Also heroes that hit more than 1 target.ex: luna,dusa,gyro
Others: naix kills them fast and doesnt die cause of feast
Dk doesnt take damage. Also has aoe in the lvl11 dragon form
Sven because of cleave ofc
Any carry can clear an ancient stack once they have their first major dmg item...but for some it is easier than others and some builds make it easier than others. I can see how a nub carry could easily die to a big stack of ancients not knowing how to do it properly.
For any melee hero, getting Vlads will make it easy to not die...just like taking roshan. It make take forever to kill them, but you can at least not lose tons of hp doing it from mistakes.
For any melee hero getting bfury clears ancients quickly. For any melee hero, using qblade will clear the ancient stack 32% faster. That is a huge increase in speed....same for roshan.
You like to play VS. If your carry is going to kill the stack go with them. Your aura and spam wave of terror will make them kill it very quickly. You really should help with attacks also...be careful to switch to a different target before they finish each one so you don't steal the lasthit. Nub players can get very angry if you take a cs they wanted...good players will know its not that big a deal...really its often critical for a support to get 1 or 2 cs to get that next set of wards up. But people get mad about it so try to avoid it.
I see you like to play Lich. Any time your carry is doing ancients...or even just regular jungling early game. If you give them a frost armor the creeps do dramatically less dmg to them and attack slower too. There are many supports that can speed up the carries jungling speed a lot if you are smart and cast the right spells as you walk past a camp. I like to nuke the highest hp creep as I go past to get it low or throw up a medallion on whichever one they are attacking. This helps them farm faster and also promotes good feelings and teamwork...unless you screw up and KS. Try to make it obvious that you are not attempting to ks.
Anyway, supports often have extra mana that is wasted while you sit at max mana half the game. Just nuke a few creeps while you walk around and stack if you can't find something better to do. These are just a few of the invisible, no-stats ways I magically win games with bad players on my team. Everything in the game has a cd and if you are not using it that cd is wasted.
When you are concerned that an ancient stack may be stolen, have it warded so you can see it and the most common approaches to it. If the enemy has invis heroes, place a sentry near your ancient stack that will not block it. That will make it much safer for your carry to farm it and often gets a free kill on the invis hero as well more than paying for the ward.
Try to get an understanding of when and where a carry wants to farm. The best spots are safe (MAKE THEM SAFE if they are not by adding ward vision), and have lots of creeps. Watch how the lanes move to see where your carry will want to go. When they are going to want to farm the lane close to the stack you can go over there and protect them and then ping the stack so they will go take it and you can help them kill it faster following the tips I have suggested.
That's just bad play by your carry then, they themselves should be aware of when they can or cannot do stacked ancients. Also just ask if the carry wants the ancients stacked before you stack them next time.
Thanks for the replies and extra thanks to Relentless for the useful tips!
I have another question now, but it related to stacking so I'll just ask here.
What can I do when enemy offlaner comes to still my pull-camp stacks? I usually try to stun/autoattack and ping ping ping (I usually have a vision ward so I'm warned that enemy hero coming) but if the camp was already on low hp and enemy is a Dark Seer or Windrunner, etc, I have no chance. Okey, DS will push the lane alone so I don't need to pull, do I? But against WR/Bounty/Weaver/etc any extra tip I could use?
Sorry if these are stupid questions, but I already learned a lot here and trying to improve somehow so ty for your time! :)
And why why why my carry usually tank the creeps under tower when he could run back to our next wave? I try not to pull when catapult is coming. I usually also tell them but they still tank. :(
Carries tank creeps under tower because...at some point someone told them to do it or they saw someone else doing it and they never thought of any other options. I have seen nubs die from full health to 1 wave of creeps doing this...then they spam angry pings at me at the pull and demand that I stop pulling...
In fact even some experienced players still do this, again having never really tried to learn a better way. When the carry is that bad...stack the pulls for later and then just lane with him since he can't handle pulls.
When offlane heroes challenge your pull you have to balance several things.
[1] Don't feed
[2] Get the cs if you can
[3] Think about pressure on the tower
[4] Think about lane control
[5] Maximize harass dmg ratio (dmg to you vs dmg to them)
These 5 objectives are made far easier if you have vision. You should bring sentries to the safelane every game. If they have an invis offlaners this makes it far easier to deal with them. If they ward block the pull you can deward immediately. If there is no other use, deward their rune ward.
I used to bring obs also, but since the starting wards nerf things changed. Obs wards should go to the side where the enemy is stronger. 1 should protect rotation from the enemies strong side to mid and give rune vision. 1 can be used to protect the offlaner or block the pull...or if they have an aggressive tri-lane, should be used as a lane ward to give vision advantage over the safelane.
[1] First think about "can they kill you?"...if you are not careful DS can kill you solo at low levels. If the enemy has an aggressive dual or tri-lane, they may also be able to kill you at low levels. The carry is trying to cs. He not should have to come save you...and if he is bad he may not even notice if you get in trouble.
[2] Get the cs if you can. If you expect them to contest be ready...have a sentry down against an invis offlaner. Place where it will give good vision to deward if needed. Different heroes have different ways of stealing the camp, know how they will try to do it and decide if you have the power to out lasthit them with nukes or right clicks...if you don't then focus on dealing as much dmg to them as possible while they take the creeps. Make them pay more in regen used than they gain in cs gold. Also remember that if your creeps get the kill you still get xp. If you zone out the enemy so they can't get the lasthit for risk of taking to much dmg...then you still won.
[3] Could them stealing the pull put to much dmg on the tower? If your carry cannot get agro off the tower because he is bad, or their aggressive lane is very dangerous and he dare not leave the tower...in cases like this it may be better to stack, but not pull. Don't do a pull that will cause you to lose the lane.
[4] Think about lane control. The primary purpose of the pull is to make sure you get levels before the enemy offlaner. If the pull will be stolen and they can safely take it from you back to their tower, then the pull has failed because they have taken the lane to safe place for them and a dangerous place for you. They will get levels instead of being denied xp as the pull should do.
[5] Maximize dmg ratio. The best way to stop an offlaner from contesting the pull is to be ready and know how to really punish them for doing it. First check their items! Know how much regen they have and if they have a stout shield. If they came prepared to fight, you may need help....be careful. If they did not come prepared to fight, man up and kill them even if you take a lot of dmg. Use creep agro to your advantage. When you have just pulled and have a full creep wave you have the advantage. If they decide to fight you it is you + the full creep wave they are fighting...if they are not an Axe this is good for you. Learn to attack walk. This is very important for early fights between supports and offlaners. Maximize the dmg ratio.
Pulling against a really good DS can be a disaster. If you will be facing a DS, check his items asap...then, if he is solo, go harass him immediately. Force him to show his skill point. If it is ion shell, check ms. If you are faster or as fast, harass and kite him. If he got surge, make him use the surge to escape. Eat through his regen asap. If you can get him low before he can afford solo ring, he will have to stop casting. But once he has levels, once he gets soul ring you may need help from mid to kill him.
When you are facing a DS be careful, be sure you can kill him quickly, or are able to stay away from him. Any time you cast your slow or stun you have to decide right then if you will win or not. Because if you won't win...you won't get away, you have to retreat immediately when you cast the slow or stun. Level 1 ion shell takes 5 sec of him walking by you to remove 113 hp. Level 2 ion shell removes 188 hp in 5 sec. Level 3 ion shell removes 263 hp in 5 sec. Try to determine quickly if DS knows what he is doing or not. If he is good at the hero DS is extremely dangerous are low levels.
hi relentless, i was wondering if you could help me analyze this game> an ogre magi support game which i lost. hope you can give me tips to improve, cheers ! - http://dotabuff.com/matches/334371770
334371770 Orge Magi
Safelane support should start with sentry wards. That way you can deward a blocked pull immediately. This magic stick is going to do very little for you. The enemy offlaners afk or are confused and don't get to the lane forever. You should be stacking and pulling creeps so you get lots of xp, extra gold, and control the position of the lane so it stays near your tower. Start with a clarity or two so you can cast more spells.
If you had started doing this right away you would already be level 3 when these guys finally show up to the lane and could just kill them immediately. Since you waited until the 2nd chance to stack, you canceled out their mistake of coming late.
At low levels OM spells cost very little. You are a melee support so you need to harass with spells instead of attacks. Use Ignite to harass and keep fireblast as a back up. Get a sobi mask to build into urn this will give you the extra mana you need to cast harassing spells. Even with your terrible early game mana regen you can afford to cast ignite 5 times by 5 min and still have mana to stun if you need it. Each clarity could be another cast. Level up Ignite over fireblast, it does more dmg. Begin throwing harassing ignites when you have level 2 ignite. The duration of the stun does not improve, but the duration of the slow does. It is much more effective to max ignite. If you do it this way you can easily use up the offlaners regen items and keep them low enough they risk death if they contest the pull or your carries farm.
4:40...going into this fight you have cast zero dmg worth of spells so far in the game. Enemy offlaners have used 1 tangoes total so far and feel totally secure. With the correct items and play it could have been as much as 1190 magic dmg cast at this point. Because you have not properly weakened and outleveled them WR and Clock easily kill you and Slardar when you try to fight them. When you do want to fight, tell NP first. Make sure he is ready to port in and help before you attack. This NP noticed and responded quickly...if you had warned him ahead of time he probably would have come even sooner and you could win that fight.
6 min you finish magic wand... this does nothing for you. You need levels that means you need to stack and pull. At 6 min you need to put up more obs wards. You keep harassing with fireblast...save the stun, you might need it. Use the slow to harass. The stun lasts 1.5 seconds max, the slow lasts 7 sec max. Duration is the most important in the laning phase and early ganks...but the ignite also does more dmg than fireblast. There is no question you should be maxing ignite. Save fireblast to cancel tp or SK ult later on.
OM has to get early levels, if you do not the game becomes very hard. But if you are behind levels the most important thing is to stay near the fight and keep casting...and do not die. Your attack dps is terrible, support from the back as OM.
At 9:40 you move into the center of the fight to right click...look how badly that went. Don't do it.
12 min you decided to risk death to try to lasthit a tower...sometimes this is ok, but against razor its got zero chance of success. How are you going to lasthit it with link on you? Your dmg is 47, Razor dmg is 121...so since he is not terrible, he gets the deny and kills you.
12:40 you got dust and obs, good.
12:44 you port in, immediately move in to right click and die again. Support from the back. You are making it extremely easy for the other team to cast multi hero aoe skills like cogs, hook, burrow strike, powershot, and cloud.
14 min, you just put up a rune ward, good. Then you walked away from the spawn point and didn't even look at it to see what might have spawned, bad. Why put up wards for vision if you don't look?
14:11 uberward before T1 tower dies mid...very ineffective. The chances of this ward helping are very small in fact, no enemy heroes get anywhere near this area before the ward expires.
Fight at 14:50, guessed for dust with no reason to believe riki was there. 10 sec later riki shows up and you have no dust. You are spamming your stun, which you maxed...and of course it does almost nothing but use up all your mana. Fireblast is strong after you have at least level 2 Multicast...at low levels its really only good for stopping channels. Because you randomly waste your mana and dust riki dives the tower and kill NP next to you and you can't do anything about it.
15:15 at this point you have zero mana, and no mana regen. You should go back to base. OM is worthless with no mana...no surprise, you and your allies die and you lose the tower because you were as helpful as an empty gun.
16:15 bloodlust lasts for 30 seconds. Cast on yourself before tping. If you did, you are easily fast enough to cast on riki in time. Because you were to slow, both you, slardar, and NP chase too far and die.
17:30 you want to check the ward time remaining...good. Some ward styles are bugged and hard to click. Don't use them. If you find have trouble clicking on a ward, just box select it.
20 min...a bit better job of supporting from the back, but eventually you do get sucked in trying to right click and die to aoe that kills allies standing almost on top of you. The game is very hard now because of so many mistakes early. Good positioning is your only hope to stay alive and come back.
20:50 STOP tping back to lanes! You are supposed to walk out and have the tp in reserve in case you need to quickly go to a different lane. If nothing is about to happen in the next few seconds do not tp, just walk.
22 min gj being ready to take the rune right as it spawns.
22:25 another pointless uberward. T1 is still up.
24 min going into teamfights bloodlust should be cast first on your initiator/strength hero because his ms is critical. And 2nd on your right click heroes for attack speed+ms. Melee needs it more than range. In this game that means slardar first, BS 2nd, Mirrana 3rd, dagon NP last...you cast on NP first., and Mirrana 2nd exactly the least effective order of usage.
24:45 you have no mana and no mana regen. Go back to base. Standing around with no mana on OM is just asking for failure.
25:05, you walk into melee range again setting up a 2 hero cogs and burrow strike opportunity...they fail it. You were lucky that your mistake did not kill Slardar this time. You paid for bad positioning with only your own death.
26 min yet another tp scroll, nearly every one totally wasted. Just stop getting them if you are going to use them this badly. You can't get your core items because you wasted 1k gold on tping to stand around or immediately feed.
26:17 you were going to try to ks with fireblast again...not only is this bad play it will make your team mad at you and make them play worse because of it. You have delayed your ignite for so long it has crippled your ganking power. I guess maxing blust over ignite actually starts to make sense when you are this far behind since you want max blust for late game.
28:22 look where you click to move. What is this, lag!?? You are bad at clicking. This means you need to compensate by doing it less. Maybe you move into really bad positions so much because you are just clicking the mouse to click it. Try not to do extra move clicks. Try to stay near the edge of your cast range. Or if this game had lots of lag spikes or something then the same technique applies. Click less so you won't accidentally move into bad positions.
29:10 Yes! you did not use the tp scroll, gj.
30 min, sentry placement makes sense...30 min just clicked over is there a rune top? no? see this and go bot and get it. You didn't look.
30:14, very bad time to smoke. Mirrana's fault...but the point is, you have no vision of any enemy heroes: Where will you go with this? Just hoping to get lucky? Randomly moving around in enemy territory hoping to run into them is not smart. Get ward vision of gank targets first, then smoke to kill them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvfCP00M7ao
31:14-31:34, watch yourself. You issue 78 move commands during this 20 second period. Why do this? Calm down. Be more careful and stop spamming mouse clicks and your control will improve.
31:34 no mana left, you go back to the fountain, gj. Of course really you should have purchased core items 20 min ago that allowed you to stay and fight...but you don't have them so go back.
33:30 no mana, go back...you stay until you are dead accomplishing nothing but to feed again
39 min another totally wasted tp scroll.
41 min good sentry, don't cast fireblast on bmailed clock. You had 2 seconds to see it and not cast. You are slow, but not that slow. Pay attention to those giant scary spikes coming out of him.
The game is getting so hard now being this far behind your gpm is down to 130 something from all those deaths and wasted tp scrolls. The enemy can basically win the game by autoattacking...they don't do it right away because they are bad and so they are afraid.
50:15 first good Fireblast of the game, prevented SK blink-ult combo, excellent
You have a lot to work on. Most important: stop moving like a circus clown and stop wasting tp scrolls.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdEkgCspCQo
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I've read it here in every second topic about supports that I should stack them, so I started doing so. It's low skill bracket/MM/whatever.
Usually it led to our carry/jungler/anything go in there, realize he can't do anything and run back to base on low hp.
When I have a Naix on my team, it's fine, he can kill them, not even mad at me for standing in xp range, so I won't be that underleveled, he gets extra farm, everyone's happy.
But not long ago a Doom just ran in a 2stack and died...
Today I stacked for a Medusa, becouse as I know, Medusa can farm them from lvl1 so it really wouldn't be a problem mid game, but he said he don't want to buy a Quelling blade (as I know, a set of Tango is enough, and he could actually ask me to cut the trees, but whatever), so after 10 mins enemy Lifestealer stole them...
Should I just stop stacking while in normal bracket and no friendly Lifestealer (or Alchemist, I guess) nearby? I'm confused, feel like I do more harm than help...